Stereotypes, social groups & discrimination.

lyrical_mess:

What really bothers me is that these days, people pay more attention to pop culture stereotypes than the kind that violate human rights. And its not right at all. Because in the scheme of things, no one gives a flying fuck what you wear or who you listen to. People are dying and killing because of "big" differences like skin and religion.

Because people care most about the things that affect them, this is mostly a UK and US site, so predominately i can safely assume that the majority are white people who are fairly comfortable in their lifestyle if they have access to a computer, so they will care mostly about the stereotypes that affect them, caucasions are less likely to be abused by racial hatred and they are even less likely to live lower than working class.

However also take into account that 99 percent of this site are teenagers so they debate what they know, and the social stigma's of high school are not entirely based on racial culture atleast not in the western world. so they debate what they know. Worldly the real stereotypes are what affect the workplace and the culture of a country but on GSB your audience have not experianced that yet. well there are the acceptions ofcourse.

True. Very true.

But these are the kinds of things you see in the news everyday. You have to be very blind or very ignorant not to see them. Financial discrimination is prominent in school, yet no one's bringing that up.

Hell, I will. In public schools, not everyone is rich. And for some lower-middle-class kids, their financial status is very apparent. How are those kids treated? By teachers and by other students.

lyrical_mess:

True. Very true.

But these are the kinds of things you see in the news everyday. You have to be very blind or very ignorant not to see them. Financial discrimination is prominent in school, yet no one's bringing that up.

Hell, I will. In public schools, not everyone is rich. And for some lower-middle-class kids, their financial status is very apparent. How are those kids treated? By teachers and by other students.

thats very obvious at my school. Kids who have money and wear expenisve clothes are verrrrrrry popular.


Another thing, i'm not sure if it would considered dimcrimination, is kids who are involved with sports are treated differently. They are extremely popular and well liked by the teachers. But me and my great grades are nothing compared to running around

xXxAndreaIsCoolxXx:

Just because you know plenty of people who would do that doesn't mean it's right to judge people based on their taste in music.

In all honesty, I like to get to know people who have different interests than me. If there was no way I could choose both, I would choose the person who likes Wu Tang Clan, even though I don't.

I do not believe that it is okay to label somebody or judge people based on anything but their personality. I pray that won't change.

I'm a vegetarian, and some of my friends are hunters.
I'm not going to refuse to get to know a person or label them because they don't agree with me on everything.

...i judge people on their taste in music.

lyrical_mess:

True. Very true.

But these are the kinds of things you see in the news everyday. You have to be very blind or very ignorant not to see them. Financial discrimination is prominent in school, yet no one's bringing that up.

Hell, I will. In public schools, not everyone is rich. And for some lower-middle-class kids, their financial status is very apparent. How are those kids treated? By teachers and by other students.

well as a teacher its why i support school uniforms, social class discrimination is much more prominant in schools that allow differences to be showcased such as wearing your own clothes or by the jewellary, when a teacher tells a child off for wearing a necklace for health safety there are many more reason than that.

Now I do believe our differences should be celebrated but the learning arena is the wrong place to do it because you cannot allow them to express their class and then preach equality.

Now I buy 3 different papers, i watch the news for half an hour a night and the may occasionly search news stories that interest me, but i do it because alot of what is included in the news affects my life. I can't see many 15 years olds sitting through the run through of tax inflations to find out if the NI is going to go up .46733 percent which then affect house prices. it's just the wrong age group you start to become of aware of your culture and surroundings when your 14-15 but you still only care about what affects you directly, thats why most people views are most matters are inherited from their parents because your still in a secular way of life until you hit uni or move out of the nest.

lyrical_mess:

True. Very true.

But these are the kinds of things you see in the news everyday. You have to be very blind or very ignorant not to see them. Financial discrimination is prominent in school, yet no one's bringing that up.

Hell, I will. In public schools, not everyone is rich. And for some lower-middle-class kids, their financial status is very apparent. How are those kids treated? By teachers and by other students.

Here,everyone goes to public schools.Rich kids or middle,even poor.And you can clearly see the ones which have financial problems and which haven't.But it's not that type of discrimination as in "You can't afford this,or that,and I can afford everything".The rich ones wear expensive clothes,have all kinds of cell-phones,PSP & other stuff,which makes the not-so-wealthy children feel bad and sometimes jealous.Teachers treat all the same,because themselves are poor and kids come to school better dressed than teachers.From that point of view,a uniform is necessary because the financial differences aren't so obvious.
That's just a part of an opinion of mine,I'm still not sure if I vote pro or con for uniform.

School is about conformity because it's getting you ready for the real world. Yes the individuality of a child is important thats why i have to learn 5000 new teaching techniques so that every child has the same chance because as teachers we know that everyone is different. BUT you are not only teaching the individual you are teaching a class, a unit. You have to have conformity so that you can control and before you start disagreeing about controlling a child, thats how you make them learn. if i stuck a piece of paper in front of them and said ''now do if you feel like it'' they'd be playing in the wendy house before i'd even turned my back.

School uniforms help calm a hyperactive child down, they also makes a school a community because it gives people something in common. It's also proven that a school that is pro uniform has a higher attendance rate, teaches children to be proud of their appearance and to respect their school because their uniform is apart of it.

indiviuduality is not about what you look like, its about who you are and when you take away dress sense which is what alot of children use to hide themselves behind you allow their personality to shine, they are no longer the goth, the prep, the skater, they are then an individual.


Individuality is not about expression, thats showmanship.

Would you know? Do you wear a uniform? Have you ever worn a uniform?

For ninth and tenth I wore one uniform and this year I'm wearing a different one. It felt weird to me. It felt disloyal even. Because going to a certain school and wearing that uniform makes that school your community and part of your identity.

However, that goes back to stereotypes and discrimination. At Oakridge, we wear a certain uniform. However, we judge kids in our apartment complex based on the uniform they wear. "She's wearing a Chirec uniform...ugh, she must be a stupid snob." or "Look at that Kennedy High shirt, what a loser."

xXxAndreaIsCoolxXx:

How does a blazer and tie calm someone down? All uniforms would do is make most students angry.

Actually, and I have conducted studies on this, on uniform days compared to non-uniform days, students are a lot more quiet. Uniforms exhibit a more formal, professional appearance which in turn affects one's attitude and behaviour. Wearing casual clothes creates a more casual atmosphere, yeah you know the rest.

Also, from gathering the numbers from the school informations office, more detentions are handed out on non-uniform days compared with uniform days.

xXxAndreaIsCoolxXx:

How does a blazer and tie calm someone down? All uniforms would do is make most students angry.

I do not know any teenager (or pre-teen for that matter) who would respect a school that forces all students to look the same. Also, how would being shoved into clothes you hate make you feel good about yourself?

Another response to this, many schools also prepare students for working in a business like environment with stuff like uniforms and dress codes, so it does become beneficial for the 'real world' or whatever the words were.

xXxAndreaIsCoolxXx:

And in fact, you're the first person who has worn a uniform that has EVER even come close to hinting to me that wearing a uniform made them appreciate their school more.

Forcing a child to wear a certain thing will (A)take away a part of who they are and their personality and (B)not take care of ANY harassment problems. Kids and teenagers will always make fun of each other, it doesn't matter if everyone is wearing the same ugly jacket or not.

If you've gathered those ideas, you musn't have net many people who go to uniform schools then.

Here in Thailand, almost every kid who goes to school, wears a uniform. Almost every single school in the kingdom has a uniform. And it is wonderfully beneficial. Because there is a national uniform, there is such a strong sense of nationality within every single child and teenager and adult alike. If you haven't been here, you must come. On Mondays, almost the entire population of Thailand wears yellow to commemorate our King. And it's wonderful, and that isn't even compulsorary. It's just because each of our hearts is fuelled with such a sense of unity. And part of that is based on our school uniform.

It's great to know that every person is going to wear the same thing as you and there is no problem at all. Virtually no kind of discrimination or intolerance of any kind. We're known as a nation of smiles because we've grown up as accepting. And yet, in no way is one of us remotely the same as another. Uniforms are a great part of our identity too. There's the army programme every Saturday and Thursday called Roh Dor and every evening, after the army you go out and the army kids go out and you know who they are, and you respect them of serving our country, so on so forth, it's great. Uniforms are beneficial, many of my friends are in the army programme and it'f nice to see that they aren't ashamed or mistreated in any sort of way.

Uniforms have eliminated almost all discrimination in Thailand. (Not counting the South because it's almost a completely different nation down there at this time, though they still do support the King very much because of his work there.)

xXxAndreaIsCoolxXx:

And in fact, you're the first person who has worn a uniform that has EVER even come close to hinting to me that wearing a uniform made them appreciate their school more.

Forcing a child to wear a certain thing will (A)take away a part of who they are and their personality and (B)not take care of ANY harassment problems. Kids and teenagers will always make fun of each other, it doesn't matter if everyone is wearing the same ugly jacket or not.

I wore a school uniform for about nine years, and it didn't take away any part of my personality, and cut way down on mockery. There was nothing to mock. We all wore the same exact thing.

xXxAndreaIsCoolxXx:

A uniform would change kids having PSPs and cell phones?

No.A uniform would make poorer children at least look like the same as the wealthy ones.That's what the ones who work in education think,and don't agree 100%. To me, uniform should be worn only until the 8th grade or somewhere around there.Because after a certain age children/teenagers in school should understand that not all the people are equal and it is a bit communist to try and make all look the same.I know that school is school and not a place to show off with all of your things mommy and daddy got you from expensive stores.But some obvious things shouldn't be hidden.

xXxAndreaIsCoolxXx:

NeoSteph:

School is about conformity because it's getting you ready for the real world. Yes the individuality of a child is important thats why i have to learn 5000 new teaching techniques so that every child has the same chance because as teachers we know that everyone is different. BUT you are not only teaching the individual you are teaching a class, a unit. You have to have conformity so that you can control and before you start disagreeing about controlling a child, thats how you make them learn. if i stuck a piece of paper in front of them and said ''now do if you feel like it'' they'd be playing in the wendy house before i'd even turned my back.

School uniforms help calm a hyperactive child down, they also makes a school a community because it gives people something in common. It's also proven that a school that is pro uniform has a higher attendance rate, teaches children to be proud of their appearance and to respect their school because their uniform is apart of it.

indiviuduality is not about what you look like, its about who you are and when you take away dress sense which is what alot of children use to hide themselves behind you allow their personality to shine, they are no longer the goth, the prep, the skater, they are then an individual.


Individuality is not about expression, thats showmanship.

The real world is about conformity? Since when? The world does not dress the same, do their hair the same, etc...,
Silly me, I thought school was about education. Not conformity. I thought school was about learning new things, meeting new people, learning how to deal with people, learning how to be yourself, how to make smart decisions, how to treat people with basic human decency.
Not about forcing everyone to look the same.

Unless you cut and die everyone hair and get them plastic surgery, there will never be true conformity. Kids will always make fun of each other and uniforms will do nothing to prevent that.

How is allowing a student to express themselves the same as allowing them to skip class? By controlling what people wear, you are telling them the only way to peacefully coexist is by dressing like everybody else. That is NOT a good lesson, it is NOT a positive thing.

How does a blazer and tie calm someone down? All uniforms would do is make most students angry.

I do not know any teenager (or pre-teen for that matter) who would respect a school that forces all students to look the same. Also, how would being shoved into clothes you hate make you feel good about yourself?

Individuality is about MANY things, including personal expression through attire. Being allowed to wear a shirt with a peace symbol on it is not showmanship, it's expression. Taking away that expression is- in my opinion- cruel and evil.

No. Uniforms would not do away with labels. Uniforms would not and do not do away with bullying. As I've already pointed out, clothes are not the only thing people make fun of each other for.
"That shirt is so last season," would change to "Ew! You look SO fat in that shirt!"
It's NOT going to change.

Forcing children to give up the best way to express yourself is NOT helping them in ANY way.

How can you tell kids that they need to be themselves, be proud of themselves, and treat each other well if you force them to give up part of what makes them who they are?

How do you express yourself?
Almost everyone uses fashion as a way to express themselves.
I see absolutely NO positives to telling a child they can't express themselves through clothes.

See there you again, your thinking only on appearance, people don't dress the same or have the same haircut, well done for working that out. But the majority of people follow the moral codes of society, we follow laws, when a traffic light turns red we universally stop. thats conformity, thats what school teaches children that for people to co exist you have to have common ground and thats what uniforms can achieve in a multi cultural/class school you give them a link to one another they wouldn't normally had. Like on your first day of school if your wearing a similar style of clothes to another person you are immediatly at first drawn to them because as humans we are most saitsfied with our own company so we strain to find others like ourselves and appearance is our first sense.

Before you can educate a child you have to improve their self worth, I've worked in schools where children come from a very poor background and they have grown up in a society that promotes ownership as proof of success, you cannot comprehend the effect social stigma has on children as young as 5, the fact they are even aware at that age that they can be viewed as less in the eyes as another because their not wearing the latest trainers is despicable.

Do you not think of the pressure non uniform schools put on the parents, those who cannot afford to buy their child a different outfit for every day of the week and then how that must make them feel when their child comes home upset because she can't understand why she can't have nicer clothes like her school mates. Uniforms ease that pressure.


I'm in the UK, i've done my compulsary state education, I've done my two years of college and now i'm in the final stretch of my teaching degree and i'm still having to wear uniform, 14 years of school and now 3 years of appearing smart to set a good example and its never made me angry or any of my peers. And in the millions of school children across the UK i've never heard of a riot because they didn't like their tie. In fact when my school started allowing girls to wear trousers insteads of skirts, i was against it because it made the uniform more tacky and in fact when it was allowed 90 percent of my all girl school still continued to wear the skirt because then people always knew you were a Notre Dame girl. Your thoughts on uniform come from no experiance.


and whats this about forcing everyone to look the same, do you have a part time job? if so, does your boss not ask you to attend work looking smart maybe in the employee's uniform. Do you kick up a fuss about not being able to wear what you want there. probably not because you get paid.

And whats also laughable about that argument is with the booming high street and fashion trends, expressive individuality is dead unless you make your own clothes or go to school in a potato sack, because with mass producing there's probably another millon people wearing your outfit right now. So basically your not wearing a school uniform which actually stands for your education, your school. Your wearing fashions uniforms, the only difference is the teachers of that school get paid a hell of alot more than me for ''forcing them to give up part of what makes them who they are?''

Lastly
How can you tell kids that they need to be themselves, be proud of themselves, and treat each other well if you force them to give up part of what makes them who they are?

What type of message would I be promoting to my class by saying who you are is defined by what you dress and look like?

Yeah...I've no idea how this topic went from stereotypes to uniforms, but believe me, I'm not the only one who doesn't have anything against uniforms. And you know what? I've had a taste of both world.

Until I was five, I was in a Catholic school wearing their uniform. And I didn't really care then because I was five. But from first grade to eighth grade, I studied in New Jersey public schools. No uniform, only dress codes. You know, the general "No indecency, please don't flash your underwear and don't promote drugs" type thing.

For the last three years, I've been in uniform. And you know what? Steph is right. It promotes a professional attitude. I mean, its a bit annoying when I can't wear my big earrings to school, but the teachers have a point. They're a distraction because people keep pointing at them and laughing. Big fucking deal. But that's not the point here.

Uniforms do help cut down in discrimination. Because you can't discriminate based on clothing when everyone's wearing the same damn thing day after day after day. If you laugh at what the person next to you is wearing, you're laughing at what you're wearing.

However, I will concede that kids will still make fun of each other. For example, me and my earrings frequently got picked on until I went out and bought a pair of simple gold rings. But some girls pull their skirts up waaaaay too high and it looks ridiculous. They get laughed at. Some guys wear their belts very loosely and they get laughed at too.

But if we had free choice of clothing in school, it would be much much worse. You have no idea. There would be so many more cliques forming left and right and cliques within cliques...God. Based on clothing alone. I kid you not.

But we are not deprived of a chance to feel and look our best. Or the chance to express ourselves. We're encouraged to be expressive through action and work and words. Even a bit of makeup is allowed. And we get to wear whatever we want (within reason) on our birthdays.

Interesting point you bring up with cruelty. Many kids in Africa and certain parts of India...they don't get to go to school. They don't get to eat regular meals. They are positively oppressed, intentionally or not. They do not understand this. They think its just life, living that way and being treated that way. They don't realize that they have a right to education and health and recreation as children.

Is it still cruel that it happens? Is it still cruel to let the kid work if he wants to work instead of learning?

Same thing applies here--is it cruel to be "forced" into the same ugly skirt and pink plaid shirt day after day when we don't mind? The answer could go either way.

My school had quite a strict dress code - only black hair bands, a maximum of two colours in your hair, only a particular style of black jumper, only grey skirts for girls etc., but the uniform as a whole was fine. You were given funny looks if you didn't have the whole uniform on ie you forgot your blazer or tie, not if you had it all. If people wanted to stand out from the crowd they would; they'd make themselves known, and people would push the boundaries of what was allowed anyway.
I wore school uniform for 12 years, and it was just part of school. It seperated school from fun time. Yes it was just clothes and there are many ways you could do that, but on mufty days we behaved worse because it was exciting and different. To see so many different colours walking around school was what made mufty days fun.
And as for the makeup thing; to be honest, the younger ones with the makeup were the ones who got slated. They'd get all the names behind their backs; 'slut', 'tart', 'Tangoed' etc. Maybe that's related to the whole topic of kids growing up quickly, but they formed their little friendship groups because they were in to the same thing, and were thus cussed down for it.
Kids aren't nice. If you express yourself they'll slag it off; if you don't they'll call you boring.

I'm not specifically pro-uniform. I just don't think it really matters. It does cut down on stereotyping in schools, but free-dress doesn't lead to social chaos.

And you must have gone to a school where children are just plain awful, because in every school I've been to, I don't remember anyone being mocked for imperfect skin. As a matter of fact, the last thing I remember anyone saying on the subject was me and my friends joking around about growing pimples that spell out our names.

Can You Say OBSESSED:

That was used to teach kids that clothes don't make the person?
Unless you're paying a lot of money to go somewhere and the student chooses to go there, a teacher doesn't have the right to tell you that you're not allowed to do what you please with your hair.

I went to the local comprehensive, but I don't see why that means the kids at my school had the right to treat teachers any differently to those who pay for their schooling to be honest. The whole reasoning behind comprehensive schools is that kids get an equal chance at getting a place in a school and learning what skills they need, regardless of their ethnicity, background or family's wealth. Just because I didn't pay my teachers' wages didn't give me a right to completely disregard everything they told me, that would just have been arrogant. The school system relies on the adult/child relationship working - otherwise there would be nothing but a building - and that includes the adults being above the kids in the hierarchy. That's just how it is, and how it has to be, to a certain degree at least, if schools are to run. As humans we have a hierarchy in society, and that's how it runs; it isn't discrimination or trying to turn everyone in to clones, or even letting them "know their place". It's not that severe. Uniforms don't erase a person's personality or make them any less of a person. They don't stop all bullying and cliques, no, but they could stop someone knowing things about you before you're ready to let them know. The kids from the council estates look exactly like the kids with the huge houses in comprehensives, and that's a good thing in my opinion.

Can You Say OBSESSED:

Ol' Blue Eyes.:

xXxAndreaIsCoolxXx:

And in fact, you're the first person who has worn a uniform that has EVER even come close to hinting to me that wearing a uniform made them appreciate their school more.

Forcing a child to wear a certain thing will (A)take away a part of who they are and their personality and (B)not take care of ANY harassment problems. Kids and teenagers will always make fun of each other, it doesn't matter if everyone is wearing the same ugly jacket or not.

I wore a school uniform for about nine years, and it didn't take away any part of my personality, and cut way down on mockery. There was nothing to mock. We all wore the same exact thing.

Teenagers mock much more than clothes.
How people look in clothes, hair, general appearance, glasses, braces, voice, opinions, etc....,

You're the first person I've talked to who wore a uniform who doesn't feel like changing a person's clothes takes away part of who they are.

Attire is an extremely strong form of personal expression.

Kids need to learn equality and respect, not conformity.

Then uniforms wouldn't stop mocking anyways, just make it one less thing to make fun of.

I don't know who you've been talking to, but me and all my classmates didn't actually care much about our uniforms. We all managed to put our own personal stamp on them, whether with buttons, shoes, accessories etc. But personally, I like to think that we are all more than the clothes we were.

I've rarely seen anyone being mocked because of what they have on.