Philosophy

lyrical_mess:

But what about Lord of the Flies? We're born indifferent, but do we all have innate evil? Are we all Jack Merridews on the inside?

Well, personally I disagree with Lord of the Flies and I hate that book. I don't think we have inner evil, we develop it as we're exposed to the world around us, I think at least.

Kurtni:

lyrical_mess:

But what about Lord of the Flies? We're born indifferent, but do we all have innate evil? Are we all Jack Merridews on the inside?

Well, personally I disagree with Lord of the Flies and I hate that book. I don't think we have inner evil, we develop it as we're exposed to the world around us, I think at least.

I mean, it's a part of any animal's instinct to be violent at times. But I see what you mean, obviously. You can be brought up in a crappy cramped neighborhood where people steal and od drugs. Chances are that you're gonna be alot more violent than somebody whos been living with like, hippies their whole lives.

Bleach:

I mean, it's a part of any animal's instinct to be violent at times.

I don't consider that the same as being born with evil though.

I don't believe in innate evil either. It's not exactly 'evil' because, well 'evil' is a hard word to objectively define. Sometimes things what animals do that seem violent are only done in the face of death, for their survival. To starve or to kill. It's not a rationalisation, its utilitarianism. The ends do justify the means, in which case humans and animals are not at all evil, merely solipsistic.

Sometimes I really don't know though, my example being the bonobo chimpanzees which will murder and rape members of other bonobo chimpanzee clans, which I think is unnecessary. But this is then proof of a hedonistic lifestyle which isn't always paralleled with the solipsistic utilitarian objectives of a selfish being.

So it is quite confusing, to conclude.

Anji:

I

Sometimes I really don't know though, my example being the bonobo chimpanzees which will murder and rape members of other bonobo chimpanzee clans, which I think is unnecessary.

They're doing what their most basic instincts tell them to do. Mate and survive. Of course rape and murder are evil by our standards, we have human minds and we don't have to kill others to survie or rape, but they're chimps, not humans. If I'm not mistaking, bonobos are some of the most human like chimps we know of, but they're still not as mentally developed as we are. They can't process evil.

Kurtni:

Anji:

I

Sometimes I really don't know though, my example being the bonobo chimpanzees which will murder and rape members of other bonobo chimpanzee clans, which I think is unnecessary.

They're doing what their most basic instincts tell them to do. Mate and survive. Of course rape and murder are evil by our standards, we have human minds and we don't have to kill others to survie or rape, but they're chimps, not humans. If I'm not mistaking, bonobos are some of the most human like chimps we know of, but they're still not as mentally developed as we are. They can't process evil.

I don't think humans can process evil.

I don't think that rape and (more correctly) un-'lawful' murder are usually an instinct. Bonobos do have a concept of right and wrong, as do a surprising number of animals, and though they may for the most part be ammoral, I think it goes without saying that rape and murder is done for the pleasure rather than instinct because there does not seem to be any justifiable reason. If they are acting irrationally, that means that they are not thinking logically and so not instictively for their survival. The emotion of revenge though, is a part of the conceptualisation of right and wrong and so murderous revenge is a reaction to an understanding of their own idea of right and wrong.

Anji:

I don't think humans can process evil.

So... humans can't process evil... but you think these chimps can?

Anji:

Bonobos do have a concept of right and wrong,

Proof please.

Kurtni:

Anji:

I don't think humans can process evil.

So... humans can't process evil... but you think these chimps can?

No, I didn't say that chimps could.

Kurtni:

Anji:

Bonobos do have a concept of right and wrong,

Proof please.

They will murder or attack another chimpanzee who has murdererd someone from their own clan or family. It's clearly doing what it thinks is right, but it's also an illogical thing to do, so it's not based on survival.

I hate the quote button

Anji:

I think it goes without saying that rape and murder is done for the pleasure

Well, the majority of naturalists would disagree with you. Animals don't mate in the same fashion we do. They're instincts tel them to have sex and I think using the word rape is the wrong context seeing as how they don't know what they're doing. Same with muder, they're not wrongfully killing another creature. They're defending their territory or trying to survive, that's instinct, not murder.

Anji:

Kurtni:

Anji:

Bonobos do have a concept of right and wrong,

Proof please.

They will murder or attack another chimpanzee who has murdererd someone from their own clan or family. It's clearly doing what it thinks is right, but it's also an illogical thing to do, so it's not based on survival.

Well, if someone is attacking their pack of chimps, and they kill and defend their pack of chimps against them, how is that not for survival? Animals kill other animals because they lack the ability to deal with their problems in any other way. Their logic is not as developed as ours, they do not understand the concepts of murder.

Anji:

No, I didn't say that chimps could.

What do you consider evil then? I would say understanding murder and approving of it is evil, personally.

Kurtni:

I hate the quote button

Anji:

I think it goes without saying that rape and murder is done for the pleasure

Well, the majority of naturalists would disagree with you. Animals don't mate in the same fashion we do. They're instincts tel them to have sex and I think using the word rape is the wrong context seeing as how they don't know what they're doing. Same with muder, they're not wrongfully killing another creature. They're defending their territory or trying to survive, that's instinct, not murder.

Actually, rape in this case is the right context, when talking about gay raping. And murder, I corrected earlier as un-'lawful' murder, which I know is an oxymoron in this context, but you know what I mean, like when they actually aren't defending their territory and are acually just launching an attack, really. They behave irrationally at times and this shows something beyond instinct.

Anji:

Actually, rape in this case is the right context, when talking about gay raping. And murder, I corrected earlier as un-'lawful' murder, which I know is an oxymoron in this context, but you know what I mean, like when they actually aren't defending their territory and are acually just launching an attack, really. They behave irrationally at times and this shows something beyond instinct.

Not really, most animals have homosexual behavior. It's not rape, because they can't comprehend they're forcing somthing to have sex with them. They're just doing what comes naturally.And how can you know what their motives are? If they're "launching an attack", chances are it is for territory because they have a constant desire to expand and move. It isn't irrational. ANd who are we to say we understand their rationality? We don't know everything about them, we can only speculate.

Kurtni:

Anji:

No, I didn't say that chimps could.

What do you consider evil then? I would say understanding murder and approving of it is evil, personally.

I would say that that is what you would consider 'evil' to be then. We are trapped in our own subjectivity and so are chimps. That's why we cannot really understand 'evil' when its connotations imply an objective understanding. Instead 'right and wrong' I think is a more appropriate phrase, and we're back to our other debate about their understanding of this.

Kurtni:

Anji:

Actually, rape in this case is the right context, when talking about gay raping. And murder, I corrected earlier as un-'lawful' murder, which I know is an oxymoron in this context, but you know what I mean, like when they actually aren't defending their territory and are acually just launching an attack, really. They behave irrationally at times and this shows something beyond instinct.

Not really, most animals have homosexual behavior. It's not rape, because they can't comprehend they're forcing somthing to have sex with them. They're just doing what comes naturally.And how can you know what their motives are? If they're "launching an attack", chances are it is for territory because they have a constant desire to expand and move. It isn't irrational.

OK, nevermind, you're right.

Lol. I always thought you were one for animals acting beyond a one-dimensional side, and having a further purpose rather than pure instinct.

The thing is, I'm such an idiot. Of course it's instinct which they rely on, but it's still not always rational. If it involves risking their life for something that isn't worth the risk, then it is irrational, like a murder for revenge or random attacks on other cimpanzee groups. Infact, sometimes randon is exactly what it is, they are stocastic, not utterly utilitarian. They maybe solipsistic, but not just for survival. Instinct, yes; survival, no. And that it's rational.

Question:

What's the difference between sadism and hedonism? Because sadism is being evil /torturing others for one's own pleasure right? And hedonism is doing things for one's own pleasure...

so...

*lost*

lyrical_mess:

Question:

What's the difference between sadism and hedonism? Because sadism is being evil /torturing others for one's own pleasure right? And hedonism is doing things for one's own pleasure...

so...

*lost*

Sadism is a form of hedonism. Unfortunately, due to the hedonism paradox, both are futile philosophies to follow.

Anji:

OK, nevermind, you're right.

Lol. I always thought you were one for animals acting beyond a one-dimensional side, and having a further purpose rather than pure instinct.

I don't think animals are one dimensional, but that doesn't change the fact that the rely heavily on instinct.