Fat Tax

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Resistance
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June 9th, 2006 at 07:05pm
NeoSteph:
WillkommenZumPolizeistaat:
Bloodraine:

No taxes.

At all.
Quote

In america, I believe that if you get sick you have to pay. Which I agree with.


So, if someone is poor to begin with, then get sick (most likely because they can't afford conditions that would allow them to prevent this illness), they should then have to pay for their sickness in a state where they cannot earn money because of the sickness?

Hooray for fairness in the capitalist system.


oh Hooray for fairness indeed, hmm fairness in Britain

well because Billions of pounds gets fed in the machine that is free Health care (tax payers money not so fair), that money has to come from somewhere, be it fireman, nurses wages, School money yep that always seems to go in there, Other parts of the public sector lose out, Don't forget good ole Prescot needs a pay rise, lets stop that anti-smoking campaign.

If you want to go all Bob Geldof and free the world go help out in Africa, stop complaining about the systems set up in the USA, you have it good deal with, it might break your heart that your not living in a card board box somewhere, oh boo hoo the middle-class hero.

anyone here arguing that being taxed for health care seems reasonable cannot fathom the unfairness of it until you start paying taxes yourself. My husband owns his own business so mr tax man likes fucking us up the arse anytime he can.

the NHS is jaded people are taxed unfairly and in doing so forced to support those who not only don't need it but are capable of contributing themselves.


I never advocated taxation or public healthcare. In fact, I denounced it.

And the fact that I have my luxurious existance doesn't mean I should ignore the poor and be happy that I am well off. No, thats idiotic and selfish. I do not seek to live in a "card-board box" either. I seek that none should live in these conditions, I seek equality of living conditions for all.
And the system in the USA is the source of the problem. As is that formerly set up in Britain and France. There evil has ceased for the most part, but the aftermath of what those governments have done remains.
Matt Smith
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Matt Smith
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Mibba Blog
June 9th, 2006 at 07:19pm
WillkommenZumPolizeistaat:
I never advocated taxation or public healthcare. In fact, I denounced it.

And the fact that I have my luxurious existance doesn't mean I should ignore the poor and be happy that I am well off. No, thats idiotic and selfish. I do not seek to live in a "card-board box" either. I seek that none should live in these conditions, I seek equality of living conditions for all.
And the system in the USA is the source of the problem. As is that formerly set up in Britain and France. There evil has ceased for the most part, but the aftermath of what those governments have done remains.

And then you whined about capitalism.
You can't have it both ways, you know.
Its either private healthcare (dog-eat-dog, only pay for what you can afford) or public (flawed. very flawed. it creates more problems than it causes).

While a country like the UK is still under the NHS, can we really afford to work a failing old health system to the bone for some rather overweight people who ate too much lard?

I'd say not. Surely, if you dig your own hole with your mouth you can dig you own way out of it with your wallet.

Oh. And since when did we ever have a private healthcare system? do you remember steph?. Before we didn't even have a healthcare system.
NeoSteph
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NeoSteph
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Mibba Blog
June 9th, 2006 at 07:25pm
Bloodraine believes that in America if you get sick you pay for your treatment, and you disagree with that because it's unfair to the lower class because they cannot afford the best treatment possible, fine I can agree with that.

Now you denounce Public Healthcare and taxation for the public healthcare.

One question were exactly will these poor people recieve treatment, your not in favor for medical insurance because that victimises poorer classes from recieveing the best treatment possible, however your not in favor for a tax system, now unless you have 3 billion pounds shoved in your jacket pocket what action do you think is best because your double standerdised posts are very misleading.

Have you lived in Britain and France do you understand the amount of pressure is on our system, it won't exist in a few years it's unworkable, it's scorned by every director thats tried to control the growing funds that needs to support and as I stated before other public sectors fail because are health care system cannot stand the pressure of it, theres not enough hard working tax paying citizens in England to support those who choose not to work.

It's very easy to judge those who maybe dont give back to the community enough and i'm not one to use someone age against them, but your 14/15, you probably either have a saturday job or none at all. You have yet to be drawn into the world of capitlism, apart from whats shown on your tv, I go to school work 12 hour shifts at work and then come home and have to pay my bills, I don't have the resources to care for the poor and I doubt you will when your older.
Resistance
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June 9th, 2006 at 07:34pm
Bloodraine:
WillkommenZumPolizeistaat:
I never advocated taxation or public healthcare. In fact, I denounced it.

And the fact that I have my luxurious existance doesn't mean I should ignore the poor and be happy that I am well off. No, thats idiotic and selfish. I do not seek to live in a "card-board box" either. I seek that none should live in these conditions, I seek equality of living conditions for all.
And the system in the USA is the source of the problem. As is that formerly set up in Britain and France. There evil has ceased for the most part, but the aftermath of what those governments have done remains.

And then you whined about capitalism.
You can't have it both ways, you know.
Its either private healthcare (dog-eat-dog, only pay for what you can afford) or public (flawed. very flawed. it creates more problems than it causes).

While a country like the UK is still under the NHS, can we really afford to work a failing old health system to the bone for some rather overweight people who ate too much lard?

I'd say not. Surely, if you dig your own hole with your mouth you can dig you own way out of it with your wallet.

Oh. And since when did we ever have a private healthcare system? do you remember steph?. Before we didn't even have a healthcare system.


Public healthcare systems that involve taxation and bueracracy are still capitalistic. If it needs money, it sure ain't socialism. I am a socialist. I believe the service should be held in common. It is the doctors duty to aid the sick. Of course, in a socialist society living conditions would be more ideal and therefore sickness less common. But of course, it can never be irradicated.

Dog eat dog laissez faire capitalistic health care= unfair treatment to the poor, and keeping them in the perpetual cycle of destiution.

Government-sponsored capitalsitic health care = Well... we all know what happens when the government tries to do something.
Matt Smith
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Mibba Blog
June 9th, 2006 at 07:40pm
So the doctors work for free, do they?
Somebody needs to pay them.
Somebody needs to pay for everything, such is the nature of the world. Equipment, machinery, resources, meds, accomodation.

Let me tell you something, it'll give you an idea of how much this costs. From personal experience

I have cost the NHS waaaay over £100,000 in operations and treatment suring the past 14 years, thats what sickness does to you. At one point, a 100 ml bottle of the anti-rejection drug cyclosporin was £115 a throw. It still didn't work.

These things cost. So much. It will never be free.

The goal of the NHS was to reduce sickness. It will never happen. People will become ill whether they are living in a socialist society or not (HOW naive???). The demand for care is never reduced.
Resistance
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June 9th, 2006 at 07:46pm
Bloodraine:
So the doctors work for free, do they?
Somebody needs to pay them.
Somebody needs to pay for everything, such is the nature of the world. Equipment, machinery, resources, meds, accomodation.

Let me tell you something, it'll give you an idea of how much this costs. From personal experience

I have cost the NHS waaaay over £100,000 in operations and treatment suring the past 14 years, thats what sickness does to you. At one point, a 100 ml bottle of the anti-rejection drug cyclosporin was £115 a throw. It still didn't work.

These things cost. So much. It will never be free.

The goal of the NHS was to reduce sickness. It will never happen. People will become ill whether they are living in a socialist society or not (HOW naive???). The demand for care is never reduced.


I'm sory, but this is blatantly untrue. There was a time before money, and their was a time before capitalism. Socialism has been tried in anarchist communes in the past AND it has succeeded.
Many drugs are so pricy because, well, there are so few drug companies found acceptable by the government, and therefore the lack of competition within a capitalist system, as capitalist theory correctly states, makes the price whatever the capitalist is willing to charge for it, which can be insanely high.
I said, people will still become sick in socialist society. But, because socialism raises living standards for all human beings, the poor are less likely to become sick, because there are no poor. We have the ability to feed everyone, we have the ability to clothe everyone, and we have the ability to house everyone. Its just our system has decided that this ability should not be excersized properly. So we overfeed, overclothe, overhouse, and overheal the minority, and underfeed, underhouse, underclothe, and underheal the majority.
Matt Smith
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Mibba Blog
June 9th, 2006 at 07:51pm
Which anarachist communities?
Where?
Little amazonion tribes again?

If you think socialism will cure sickness, well, it will not. I live in a relatively rich rural area with great living standards yet I was born with a fucked up intestine so sucks to be me, eh?. This society i'm living in right now is doing fine for my living standards yet I still got sick.

There will always be poor people. Always. Just the way the world works, it is too huge a place to ever change that.
NeoSteph
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NeoSteph
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Mibba Blog
June 9th, 2006 at 08:00pm
true there was a time before money, but not a time before payment, people didn;t used to go around doing things for free, they recieved something in return which is where the idea of money came from.

can you name some of thse anarchist communes that your so fond of?

aaah so the government does not allow certain drug company's to run not because the drugs they manufacture could be dangerous for humans but so there is no competition. what would you prefer pricey drugs or ones allowed into the system that do more damage than good so that capatilist soceity will not work so well because of competition Rolling Eyes

Socialism never raised living standards, in fact withjin the russian revolution when many political tactis were controlled by socialist, millions died through famine because of common owned land within the country side.

Capitilism is Unfair but Socialism is a pipe dream, people cannot become equal because a natural order is needed for the growth of society. You spread the message of equality but you do not live it, which makes your argument somewhat hypocritical.
Resistance
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June 9th, 2006 at 08:10pm
Bloodraine:
Which anarachist communities?
Where?
Little amazonion tribes again?


The Shakers, Christian anarchists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers

Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War:
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/spaindx.html#Collectives


Self-Explanatory via link name:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_and_present_anarchist_communities

Also, the fact that native americans of north america would be considered anarchistic.

And pre-agricultural communities (the majority of human history) were anarchistic.
Quote

If you think socialism will cure sickness, well, it will not. I live in a relatively rich rural area with great living standards yet I was born with a fucked up intestine so sucks to be me, eh?. This society i'm living in right now is doing fine for my living standards yet I still got sick.

Socialism will help prevent diseases. I never said it would solve everything, I said it would greatly reduce sickness world over.

Quote

There will always be poor people. Always. Just the way the world works, it is too huge a place to ever change that.


There wasa time before there were divisions based on wealth. Classless society is a phoenix. It has died, but soon it will rise from the ashes.
Kurtni
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Mibba Blog
June 9th, 2006 at 09:37pm
In America you don't really "pay" for your own healthcare, typically people have insurance, which you still pay for. If you can't afford insurance, you get placed on public aid which is a government program.
Kitti
Falling In Love With The Board
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June 10th, 2006 at 09:01pm
WillkommenZumPolizeistaat:
Bloodraine:
Which anarachist communities?
Where?
Little amazonion tribes again?


The Shakers, Christian anarchists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers

Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War:
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/spaindx.html#Collectives


Self-Explanatory via link name:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_and_present_anarchist_communities

Also, the fact that native americans of north america would be considered anarchistic.

And pre-agricultural communities (the majority of human history) were anarchistic.
Quote

If you think socialism will cure sickness, well, it will not. I live in a relatively rich rural area with great living standards yet I was born with a fucked up intestine so sucks to be me, eh?. This society i'm living in right now is doing fine for my living standards yet I still got sick.

Socialism will help prevent diseases. I never said it would solve everything, I said it would greatly reduce sickness world over.

Quote

There will always be poor people. Always. Just the way the world works, it is too huge a place to ever change that.


There wasa time before there were divisions based on wealth. Classless society is a phoenix. It has died, but soon it will rise from the ashes.

I believe we have a thread on anarchy if you'd like to move this somewhat offtopic discussion there, please and thank you.
http://www.geekstinkbreath.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=40279
And one on communism Wink
http://www.geekstinkbreath.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=29484
Kitti
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Kitti
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Posts: 5688
June 11th, 2006 at 10:38am
WillkommenZumPolizeistaat:
Bloodraine:
So the doctors work for free, do they?
Somebody needs to pay them.
Somebody needs to pay for everything, such is the nature of the world. Equipment, machinery, resources, meds, accomodation.

Let me tell you something, it'll give you an idea of how much this costs. From personal experience

I have cost the NHS waaaay over £100,000 in operations and treatment suring the past 14 years, thats what sickness does to you. At one point, a 100 ml bottle of the anti-rejection drug cyclosporin was £115 a throw. It still didn't work.

These things cost. So much. It will never be free.

The goal of the NHS was to reduce sickness. It will never happen. People will become ill whether they are living in a socialist society or not (HOW naive???). The demand for care is never reduced.


I'm sory, but this is blatantly untrue. There was a time before money, and their was a time before capitalism. Socialism has been tried in anarchist communes in the past AND it has succeeded.
Many drugs are so pricy because, well, there are so few drug companies found acceptable by the government, and therefore the lack of competition within a capitalist system, as capitalist theory correctly states, makes the price whatever the capitalist is willing to charge for it, which can be insanely high.
I said, people will still become sick in socialist society. But, because socialism raises living standards for all human beings, the poor are less likely to become sick, because there are no poor. We have the ability to feed everyone, we have the ability to clothe everyone, and we have the ability to house everyone. Its just our system has decided that this ability should not be excersized properly. So we overfeed, overclothe, overhouse, and overheal the minority, and underfeed, underhouse, underclothe, and underheal the majority.

Meg has a point. People will always get sick. It happens, that's natural order. Socialism won't solve the problem.
When you consider money, do you realize that it's giving one thing in exchange for another? That's always been done. Listen to Steph. She speaks the truth!

Socialism does not always raise living standards. It doesn't eliminate class distinctions, which means there are still poor people. And there are still sick people. Because socialism doesn't eliminate pathogens or disease or genetic disorders or cancer.

Capitalism has its benefits. Granted, there is a monopoly here in the States on health insurance. But if you turn on your television to some non-cable channel, you might see some advertisements for smaller, privately owned supplemental healthcare plans. They're inexpensive, and because it's not insurance, you can't be turned down because you're sick and you won't pay a higher insurance premium for it either.
Lucifers Angel
King For A Couple Of Days
Lucifers Angel
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June 12th, 2006 at 11:18am
spill_no_sick:
WillkommenZumPolizeistaat:
Bloodraine:

No taxes.

At all.
Quote

In america, I believe that if you get sick you have to pay. Which I agree with.


So, if someone is poor to begin with, then get sick (most likely because they can't afford conditions that would allow them to prevent this illness), they should then have to pay for their sickness in a state where they cannot earn money because of the sickness?

Hooray for fairness in the capitalist system.
okay class, this is what we call the, "puppies and poor people Propaganda technique" in which you give up your argument because if you don't feel sorry for the puppies and poor people you'll be made out to look like a jackass


anywho, the government shouldn't pay for all of your medical bills and I think that they're giving out enough pills and paying enough bills for now....I was about to make a cheap joke about poor people migrating to Canadia....then I stopped myself


who will pay for the police, the roads, the schools. the hospitals, the gp's the list is endless?
Kurtni
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Mibba Blog
June 12th, 2006 at 11:43am
Magne:
spill_no_sick:
WillkommenZumPolizeistaat:
Bloodraine:

No taxes.

At all.
Quote

In america, I believe that if you get sick you have to pay. Which I agree with.


So, if someone is poor to begin with, then get sick (most likely because they can't afford conditions that would allow them to prevent this illness), they should then have to pay for their sickness in a state where they cannot earn money because of the sickness?

Hooray for fairness in the capitalist system.
okay class, this is what we call the, "puppies and poor people Propaganda technique" in which you give up your argument because if you don't feel sorry for the puppies and poor people you'll be made out to look like a jackass


anywho, the government shouldn't pay for all of your medical bills and I think that they're giving out enough pills and paying enough bills for now....I was about to make a cheap joke about poor people migrating to Canadia....then I stopped myself


who will pay for the police, the roads, the schools. the hospitals, the gp's the list is endless?
Pffft As long as those puppies are ok, does it matter? Rolling Eyes
Lucifers Angel
King For A Couple Of Days
Lucifers Angel
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Gender: Female
Posts: 4751
June 12th, 2006 at 11:56am
I_worship_tre_Cool:
Magne:
spill_no_sick:
WillkommenZumPolizeistaat:
Bloodraine:

No taxes.

At all.
Quote

In america, I believe that if you get sick you have to pay. Which I agree with.


So, if someone is poor to begin with, then get sick (most likely because they can't afford conditions that would allow them to prevent this illness), they should then have to pay for their sickness in a state where they cannot earn money because of the sickness?

Hooray for fairness in the capitalist system.
okay class, this is what we call the, "puppies and poor people Propaganda technique" in which you give up your argument because if you don't feel sorry for the puppies and poor people you'll be made out to look like a jackass


anywho, the government shouldn't pay for all of your medical bills and I think that they're giving out enough pills and paying enough bills for now....I was about to make a cheap joke about poor people migrating to Canadia....then I stopped myself


who will pay for the police, the roads, the schools. the hospitals, the gp's the list is endless?
Pffft As long as those puppies are ok, does it matter? Rolling Eyes


but they wouldnt be ok if you stop paying tax they will become void.
anti-christ of suburbia
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Mibba
July 28th, 2006 at 06:49am
In England, taxes pay for the health service. this means that everyone has access to treatment, no matter how poor they are. this is what we call 'fair' and stops the horrendous downward spiral mentioned by WillkommenZumPolizeistaat. i like the way you think Clap
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