Prostitution

Pretty Like Drugs:

I don't know if there's some rule against bringing back oooold posts to argue, but anyways, a thought occurred to me reading that.

Do you know for a fact that prostitutes see it as self-degrading? That they truly believe they're worthless people who can't do any better than selling their own body? Because personally, I think sex can be a powerful thing. To wield the power to drive a man to his knees with pleasure... it's not something just any old person can go out and do. I mean, you're exposing yourself day after day to strangers. Doesn't it seem to you like it takes a certain amount of self-confidence? You KNOW you've got the body, the skills, the freakish flexibility etc. I'm not saying every prostitute out there looks in the mirror every morning and goes, "Right. I'm a hot momma. Think I'll let men grope me and shag me and then make them pay through the nose." But, you know, it's a concept that came to me and I don't dismiss it entirely. Just a thought. Please don't think I like to dominate men *shudder*

You also said, "Anyone who resorts to this is seriously wrong and in need of help", and "Alot of people are prostitutes for money, but thats so sad and down right depressing." Why? Because according to your morals and standards, it's an awful profession? Lucky you then, it seems you have the sense to not make such ridiculous choices. However please don't just assume anyone who picks this job is 'in in need of help', just because you disagree with it doesn't mean they're not right in the head. Perhaps they don't want the government's charity. Dirty profession or not, they are making their own money, and there could be a certain amount of pride involved. You say they are capable of getting other jobs, and therefore they should. Should they really? It's their life. I don't see why they should because you, and countless like you, think they're better off for it. I've noticed in other discussion threads you seem very much for the freedom of expression, freedom of choice, belief, etc. "Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they can't do it." This came from the Prejudice Against Christians thread. And you were terribly against the Madrid banning of skinny models, because you believed in a designer's right to pick their own models. That's a situation with plenty of disadvantages (like eating disorders), just like this one (like spreading of STDs). Why can't you support their freedom of choice in this case?

I know you have also brought up the issue of women sold and forced into this profession. I won't argue against you on that count, I don't know a lot about that issue.

The majority of psychological research supports my post, so it isn't about "what I think", it's about proven scientific facts. You make prostitution sound like a glamourus thing; like it's all about the prostitute being in power, and about pleasure and "bringing a man to his knees", and being able to flex? Dude, that's so far off. Girls who are prostitutes by choice, are either extremely ignorant to the reality of the industry or just stupid, and ignorance is no excuse, nor is stupidity. They are putting themselves in danger of being raped and infected with STD's, not to mention that they are promoting an industry that enslaves people, they weren't who I was talking about and really I'm not concerned about their well being. Prostitutes who do what they do because they feel they have no choice like I said have no self confidence, no self respect, and are doing everything they can to just survive. Some don't even think of what they do as sex and had terrible childhoods that make them feel worthless and they see themselves as only sexual objects and nothing more.

And it isn't "just their life", it's about the girls who are forced into this industry, so please stop trying to make me out like a narrowminded bitch who thinks the world need to function by her morals, it isn't needed because I've made my opinion about that clear in other posts. The 9th amendment to the constitution states your rights go as far as someones elses. Their choice to be a prostitute promotes an industry that enslaves other girls. I am very much for freedom, which is why Im against prostitution, it is the total opposite of freedom. People seem to forget how real 21st century slave trade is, and don't realize what a problem it is. You even said you don't know much about it; perhaps before you form an opinion about prostitution you should check into that because they are closely related. It isn't about the prostitutes free choice, it's about the other girls who have no choice because of prostitution, they are the victims here. Sorry that my "morals and standards" tell me that slavery is wrong. If you think STD's are the only bad thing about prostitution, you aren't looking at the big picture.

Oh, and thanks for taking what I said in the skinny model thread out of context and making it seem like I support eating disorders, that was really classy. Extremist comparisons don't help you argue your point any, they just make people mad.

To Kurtini, because quoting would make it too long.

On the issue of the psychological effects. I didn’t say, or try to make out, that the prostitution industry was glamourous – what I definitely did say was that I think sex can be a powerful thing. I simply asked if it could be a possibility that some girls may perceive the industry as alluring rather than a profession to turn to as a result of low self-esteem. Whether they are delusional, or merely different from the girls in the study you linked to, I didn’t claim it to be the reality of the situation. But I quote, some “Pull factors include the allure of easy money, `heroine chic', and the glamour of the streets ("The Pretty Woman (Julia Roberts) Effect".) - the findings of your information pretty much sum up the push factors. And that’s all I have to say regarding that point.

The most effective protection from contracting an STD is not having sex. So to me, as far as STDs are concerned, the only difference between a prostitute and a promiscuous male/female is that the prostitute gets paid at the end of the day. But as you pointed out, it's not the only harm in the industry. I am aware of that, as aware as I am of the fact that you don't support eating disorders. I'm truly sorry I worded that sentence so badly, and made you out as someone you're not. The truth was I wasn't going to name every single disadvantage in the two industries; I was only focusing on the underlying issue of your support of an individual's freedom, which came up in both topics. And while we’re on that… the freedom issue can go both ways in this situation, I suppose. It’s true, enslaved women don’t have much of a say when they’re left in some foreign country where they don’t have the language to speak for themselves, and in such desperate situations they resort to prostitution, or are forced into it for the financial gain of their captors/owners. As for the women who chose this profession out of their own free will, they should still retain that right to do so. In their case it isn’t the total opposite of freedom; they’re aware of the fact that none of the sex will be intimate, and they probably won’t enjoy it any of it. But by making the choice to enter the profession they’ve accepted all of those factors, and having chosen that future for themselves means they also had the freedom to do so.

On a more subjective note, I don’t support prostitution of any kind either, however fucked up or cold I may have come off previously. But the fact is, slavery/human trafficking and traffickers don’t need encouragement from the legalization of prostitution to continue luring women and girls from their poor families and home countries. Prostitution was popular during the times in history when it was acceptable to society, and deemed legal. And in the times when it wasn’t, it has found ways to survive, using thinly veiled disguises (like prostitutes calling themselves ‘escorts’) to get around legalities. The sex industry has THRIVED through the ages, will continue to thrive, and that mere fact is enough reason for women/girls to continue being forced thrust into it. Besides, the causes of human trafficking and ways of eliminating it (tougher penalties against traffickers, and enforced more rigourously, eliminating poverty hence the profitability of this industry, recognizing basic human rights, in some cases etc. - which I know are easier said than done) need to be focused on here. And just a little note on the side, “In September 2006 a report by the Otago University's Christchurch School of Medicine and Health Sciences for the Review Committee indicated that the number of prostitutes plying their trade on the streets, since the changes of the Prostitution Reform Act 2003, has remained the same or reduced in some cases.� Otago University is a university in Dunedin, New Zealand, where prostitution is legal.

Prostitutes who were sexually abused, raped, used to risk a jail term if they went forth to the police due to their profession not being legal. Legal or not, everyone has the right to refuse sex. With the legalization of it, prostitutes receive rights, protection, health checks. Here in New Zealand we have the NZPC, the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective, dedicated to keeping both prostitutes and the public informed of the sex industry. They provide free health services, support any in the industry with advice (they have publications like magazines and kits), etc. I like the idea that, although prostitution will never go away, groups like this are in my society to provide the much needed support, help those who are ignorant and discriminate. Perhaps my government legalizing it shows that they have woken up to the fact that they need to bend or be broken; it was actually an extremely close vote. They will never abolish the sex industry, so they might as well provide a safer environment for those who go down that path.

[offtopicness] In response to your comment about my avatar - same goes to your DVT template [/offtopicness]

The article was about the psychologial state of the girls and the type of false reality they live in. Those pull factors don't change the mentality of the girls, that's what sucks them into the industry, and once they are they realize it isn't what they thought at all.

The difference between prostitutes and other people are prostitutes don't know who they are having sex with, most don't have the money or just don't want to be tested for AID's or HIV and they spread like crazy. There is a difference. It would be idealistc to assume that girls who aren't prostitutes always know who they are having sex with, but prostitutes almost never know.

And like I said; the 9th amendment (US Constitution) states your rights go as far as someone elses. The fact that prostitution is such a brutal industry and affects more than just the one girl who makes a choice, they no longer have the right to make that choice, because it harms others. It's like speeding (well, aside from the sex difference) You don't have the right to choose to go speeding down a highway at 130 mph because you could hurt someone else. By choosing prostitution, they are hurting other people, and themselves. And like that article I posted said, some girls aren't aware the sex won't be intimate; they don't even think of what they do as sex. They have a very distorted view of reality.

I never said making prostitution illegal (it already is here) would solve the 21st century slave trade issue; it will only make it worse. The assumed system here would be that the prostitutes would get licences and have to have routine health exams. Well, right now it's illegal, so anytime it's discovered by law officials it's dealt with. If it were legal, slaves wouldn't be noticed, licences can be forged. What they were forcing these girls to do was illegal, now the only illegal part would be them being forced into it.

Some people thought we'd never abolish slavery, and so far we haven't, but it has gotten alot better compared to where we were 100 years ago. Some people thought women would never have equal rights; and in some cases we still don't, but it's gotten alot better compared to where we were 100 years ago. Point being, things seem unrealistic, and we may never accomplish what we set out to do, but that doesn't mean we can't make progress in the right direction. Just because the goal is nearly impossible to reach doesn't mean we can't try.

And thank you for the compliment on the template.

Damn internet, I lost my entire post.

To restart: If people (any person) were more aware of the dangers of unprotected sex, there wouldn’t be such an emphasis on it in campaigns like the “No rubba, no hubba hubba� ad launch. What truly terrifies me is that a lot of girls don’t seem to care. Whether they’re truly ignorant or simply don’t care, I don’t know, but I wouldn’t say so unless I knew, a lot of the times she’s not well informed about her sexual partner, either. It scares me to know that she could be just as in the dark as a prostitute is about a client, meeting a ‘mate of a mate’ is NOT knowing him/her, and that slight affiliation does not guarantee you protection. Same goes for shagging some random you met in a bar in a drunken state. Not everyone will describe to you their medical history before hopping into bed with you, and not directing this at anyone in particular, or generalizing, but I’ve met many girls firsthand who put out VERY fast, and it’s horrifying how little they take care of themselves. Anyone who neglects their health is plain stupid; and this isn’t a question of morals or opinion, it’s just common sense.

Wouldn't then the act of selling oneself for sex be putting one's health at risk? Yes. I don't support it and won't condone it if you held a gun to my head. But obviously many go down that self-destructive path, and out of shame they don't go in for health checks for fear of being judged. If these checks are made compulsory, and clinics are run to look after prostitutes, they will know they are in an environment that deals with many others like them, and are therefore less likely to be judged.

The issue of rights is controversial and varied among countries. Sure, the 9th Amendment says your rights go only as far as someone else’s. Well, Eritrea says the press can’t have freedom of expression in their country. In North Korea the government won’t lose sleep if your child doesn’t qualify for an education – it’s not so much a recognized right as it is a privilege. Now, I’m not saying either cases are just, but that the US Constitution isn’t representative of the world, and prostitution is a global issue. I’m also not saying everyone should follow what New Zealand is doing simply because I think it’s right, either, or that the results of our legislation will reverberate everywhere else if similar action is taken. I think by legalizing prostitution it is bettering (is that even a word?) the situation, you’ve read about the health services and information packs offered. I applaud those who made the effort to improve slavery in the 21st century. But the sex industry will always flourish, more so now than in the past, I think, because it is an issue that’s become more acceptable, more openly discussed and portrayed. We are totally obsessed with sex, enhancing our sexual experiences, or even just getting our thrills cheaply. I mean, look around. We’re surrounded by porn magazines and sites, brothels, legal and otherwise, date rape drugs and Viagra ads, kinky sex toys like little blow up sheep with a hole at the… rear (don’t ask). It all boils down to the profitability of this trade and profession. Now, you can say by making it legal it is worsening the situation of human trafficking, and the issue of licenses is easy to go around, and with one an enslaved prostitute is less visible to authorities. All very true. But if you spend more time tracking down and prosecuting the traffickers, there would be less people trying to profit from/take advantage of desolate, poor and desperate families hoping for a better start in a foreign country. Basically in this situation you can either take away the use of slaves, or you can stop those doing the enslaving. I'd go for the latter.

As a working student, and tax payer, I wouldn’t want my contribution, however insignificant, to go towards the arresting, prosecuting and jailing of illegal prostitutes and pimps for soliciting and illegal sale of sex, something they choose offer, something their clients choose to accept. (That's the difference between prostitution and speeding - a client chooses to use the services of a prostitute. No one chooses to get hit by another car.) It's a waste of resources. I’d rather the same, and more, amount of time, money and effort spent cracking down on and bringing to justice criminals who ignore basic human rights, deprive people of their freedoms by selling them not only as prostitutes, but as slave labourers and business for the black market of human organs. The legalization of prostitution mostly frees up authorities a little more time for that.

men and women are making a living now from "cyber sex" they get paid for it through agencies, do you think that is prostitution aswell?

Lucifers Angel:

men and women are making a living now from "cyber sex" they get paid for it through agencies, do you think that is prostitution aswell?

That is as Courtney was talking about, 'Glamour Prostitution'.

Those people don't actually need the money, they can obviously afford a computer, it'd be most unlikely that they're using a public computer.

Anji:

Lucifers Angel:

men and women are making a living now from "cyber sex" they get paid for it through agencies, do you think that is prostitution aswell?

That is as Courtney was talking about, 'Glamour Prostitution'.

Those people don't actually need the money, they can obviously afford a computer, it'd be most unlikely that they're using a public computer.

So... would it be safe to assume these people are in a slightly better situation as far as their mental health is concerned? Or do they have a distorted view of reality too?

I read the Sydney Morning Herald website every day, and anyways, I saw this article that is really good and brings up a few good points.

The article can be found here.

Pretty Like Drugs:

Anji:

Lucifers Angel:

men and women are making a living now from "cyber sex" they get paid for it through agencies, do you think that is prostitution aswell?

That is as Courtney was talking about, 'Glamour Prostitution'.

Those people don't actually need the money, they can obviously afford a computer, it'd be most unlikely that they're using a public computer.

So... would it be safe to assume these people are in a slightly better situation as far as their mental health is concerned? Or do they have a distorted view of reality too?

I don't think prostitues have a mentally distorted view on reality at all. I approve prostitution sometimes because I believe that in some cases it is the last resort.

Cyber prostitutes are just horny internet freaks with too much spare time. Unless you go to a proper website, most people aren't even paid. They just do it because they can and they want to have fun and they think it's fun.

don't insult Anji by suggesting she has a distorted view of reality (I joke, I joke)
but yeah, prostitution is one of those things that puts your mind back in reality
it's so close to the roots of our nature (hello, the first profession in history)
if you believe that it is unnatural you have a very distorted view of reality

Anji:

Cyber prostitutes are just horny internet freaks with too much spare time. Unless you go to a proper website, most people aren't even paid. They just do it because they can and they want to have fun and they think it's fun.

I agree there. I accidentally downloaded a porn that was made by a web cam and I don't think the "actress" was forced into anything. In fact, she had ads for her other "work."

Dr. Cuddy:

Anji:

Cyber prostitutes are just horny internet freaks with too much spare time. Unless you go to a proper website, most people aren't even paid. They just do it because they can and they want to have fun and they think it's fun.

I agree there. I accidentally downloaded a porn that was made by a web cam and I don't think the "actress" was forced into anything. In fact, she had ads from her other "work."

exactly, internet prostitution isn't legal, but it's so impossible to detect that it goes on as if it is legal
that is exactly what real prostitution would be like if it was legal
you couldn't force anyone into it (unless you're really that much of a Sociopath) and those who do it are just like the strippers of the eighties
they do it because they enjoy it and can make a killing

i think its good that they have made it legal because its a fact that there's less raping and prostitution is never going to be stopped ever really so it might aswell be legal. And yeh i think prostitutes should be registered and stuff like that so they know they are safe i think most of them should be joined in a agency or escorting service that way its more safe
however it is wrong prostitution but like that guy said to you its never going to be stopped.

well there are two kinds of prostitution
one there are women and girls who chose for that "profession"
two there are women and girls(also kids) who are forced into prostitution

one should be legal I think, that way they can be protected by law
nevertheless often women whofirst join the scene freely don't have a chance to leave it because their "pimp" threatens them. thats should be observed and prevented by law. maybe if prostitution is made legal it is easier for the women to find protection in the law and from the police.

the second case is definitly illegal and should stay illegal

the problem nevertheless will always be that criminals might abuse and violate the legalisation andu se it for bad intent.