Free Will

yeah, so I love stirring up contradictions in the religious threads, then I decided to do this from both a scientific and religious point of view (cha-ching I spelled view right without spellcheck)

Do you think you have free will?
Or do you think it is all [edit]controlled[/edit]?

Religious side of shit
With the Christian/Jewish view it is quite easy to just say no. That is the answer. God knew everything you would ever do when you were created. So that pretty much means he created you to do everything you would ever do. He created you, and knew what you would do.

But wait, doesn't that mean that he made you sin? If he knew where you would sin, then isn't it wrong to punish you? I'll get back to this question when I'm done with the

Scientific side of shit (you know my titles of shit are rad and shit...I totally watch too much Kevin Smith films and shit)

Well, do you have free will?
Are your actions truly yours?
I would say no to that as well.
Think about it, there is so much that affects what you do.
The way you think, act, and perceive emotions are all affected by
-your genealogy, how your parents were is carried down to you
-the people around you, the way they act, feel, and think
-your physical body, any handicaps you may have, whether huge are minor you have some
-the way you were raised, by parents, in school by friends, everything around you

I seriously doubt you affect any of your decisions, emotions, or thoughts
you aren't you, you are everyone you've met to some degree

so when you shoot up your school, is it because of what society did?
are they responsible?
seriously, they raised you with that logic, and they put you down to the point where you would go to those extremes, doesn't that mean they should take the blame and try to better themselves?
no, they don't have that kind of free will either
they are only everyone who came before them
they are merely puppets like you and I
they can't take responsibility, because they are everyone
you can't take full responsibility because you are everyone

who should take the blame then?
everyone
when we see something of that nature you think, "how did I contribute, how do I apologize, and how to I prevent something of that magnitude in the future and how do I better myself?"
if we all do that then we can progress, since we don't choose our actions, everyone does, it takes one step from everyone to move a step forward
for all you math geeks, one person can take as many steps as possible, but there is no asymptote because some people are still at zero steps (I totally lost everyone there)

which goes back to the religious thing
everyone should take their share of the blame, therefore no one feels guilty and the right thing is being done
when moms blame video games they forget to blame themselves for never teaching their children, "just because someone on a video game kills all those people, doesn't mean you need to", and they never blame themselves for giving their kids access (which is just an excuse not to teach their children)
they don't try to better themselves

well, (if you believe in it) God gave us all these resources
you have good influences, and if our lack of free will makes us susceptible to a race of bad people, it also makes us susceptible to a race of good people
you could have thought the conundrum in your head, "why would punish us for doing something that isn't our fault, if we are everyone we met then why are we going to hell, it's their fault"
well, you just met me and I cleared things up a little (hopefully)


Nick's final thoughts and shit
everything about us is influenced by something, we have nothing individual, and everyone before was just influenced in the same way, so we are also influenced by those we've never met and have nothing to do with us
we don't have free will
God created us knowing what we would do, therefore we were created to do what we will do
we don't have free will
does that mean we're off the hook?
hell no, it means the opposite
we are indirectly everyone around us

Unnecessary "An Inconvenient Truth"-esque ego trip of the author and shit
yeah, I said this as fact instead of as a discussion because I believe it
this is really for everyone to share their ideas, instead of openly agreeing and disagreeing
if we just bring our premade opinions, and then soak in everyone else's, and then combine everything we think is right we can get so much further as a race of philosophers
oh yeah, and I feel flawed for being able to point out all of this
I just feel like I'm a flaw of all creation
and not because I'm feeling bad about my self "I'm the tumor of all creation" I just kind of subconsciously (ever been able to tap into that? yeah, it's kinda creepy when you do) LOVE the romance of feeling special

edit: while I'm off topic I love Kurtni's Dita template

While off topic Kurtni's ego inflates to ten times it's normal size anytime someone even mentions the Dita Template.

Anyways, back on topic. I, personally, don't believe in any set organized religion. It probably comes off that I just hate the idea of religion all together at times in other threads but I don't. I'm an agnostic person who wishes she was atheist because that would be a helluva alot easier for the most part. I agree with Nick when he says we're influenced by all the things around us, the enviormental factor of where we're raised and by who, ect. It would be silly to think that plays no part in the way we behave and think everything is caused by genetics *coughlikemyscienceteacherwhoifightwithdailycough*. However I don't think that takes away our free will entirely, it just molds it. For example, you could be raised in a religious home, brought up with that religions morals, ect, but when you're older you may still choose to no longer practice that religion. Your free will allows you to decide that. And your free will might allow you to choose to start practicing that religion again at a later date.

I do think we are influenced alot though, obviously. I tend to look at free will as our ability to think for ourselves. Everyday little choices you make are the product of free will. What you eat for lunch, what you watch on Tv, what you read, that's your choice. Then what you watch and Tv and what you read turn around and later influence the choices you make, but you're still free to make the choices, you just have alot of things leading you one way more so than the other. Influenced choices are still choices that you made. Our ability to think and logically reason between our influences is what allows us to have free will instead of being mindless zombies following the lead of something else without forming our own opinions.

you could be raised in a religious home, but your sceptisism comes from somewhere
I think the fact that we don't understand a lot distracts us from the fact that we are zombies
when a girl is about to experience her first period (okay, now I don't really know what I talk about, I'm just taking this from sex ed and TV which are both really bad sources) they just assume that they're more emotional than usual, they don't understand that it's part of a monthly pain-in-the-ass
when they understand it, they realize that they aren't emotional, it's just something that's always been

even when it's something like soaping my right arm first when I'm in the shower, I didn't choose it
maybe it's just something my dad has always done and that trait is passed down
maybe it's because I saw a porno where someone did that and I subconsiously got it from there and made it a habbit
but I didn't actually come up with it
maybe the fact I looked up Dita pictures this afternoon is because I saw that in your avatar and just had it in the back of my mind
but I didn't just think of it myself, I didn't choose it

I'm completely on the fence about this. I don't believe in any set religion, but I do believe that in our lifetimes we are meant to do a certain number of things, be in certain places, meet certain people.

I think it's our own free will what we do with those occurances.

So I believe in a mix of the two?

I believe certain things are fate, such as soulmates.
But I believe in free will more so.
You have choices. Everyday you make many choices and they lead to where your life ends up.

I love how so much of what I said was just ignored
soulmates?
everyone has one person out there for them right?
if everyone has one person, and Jim and Sarah hook up and they shouldn't, did they just fuck it up for the rest of the world?

though me not believing in love isn't part of this discussion, it's due to chemicals and influences by other people that decide your "soul mates"

spill_no_sick:

I love how so much of what I said was just ignored
soulmates?
everyone has one person out there for them right?
if everyone has one person, and Jim and Sarah hook up and they shouldn't, did they just fuck it up for the rest of the world?

though me not believing in love isn't part of this discussion, it's due to chemicals and influences by other people that decide your "soul mates"

I don't believe everyone has one person out there for them, no.
But I believe some people are soul mates and that it is pre-destined.

druscilla_nesser:

spill_no_sick:

I love how so much of what I said was just ignored
soulmates?
everyone has one person out there for them right?
if everyone has one person, and Jim and Sarah hook up and they shouldn't, did they just fuck it up for the rest of the world?

though me not believing in love isn't part of this discussion, it's due to chemicals and influences by other people that decide your "soul mates"

I don't believe everyone has one person out there for them, no.
But I believe some people are soul mates and that it is pre-destined.

yeah, since we are technically everyone around us you'd think you have some things in common with others
and this isn't a topic on predestination (which is, "do we have control over the future" it's a topic on free will ("do we have control over ourselves now?"

spill_no_sick:

druscilla_nesser:

spill_no_sick:

I love how so much of what I said was just ignored
soulmates?
everyone has one person out there for them right?
if everyone has one person, and Jim and Sarah hook up and they shouldn't, did they just fuck it up for the rest of the world?

though me not believing in love isn't part of this discussion, it's due to chemicals and influences by other people that decide your "soul mates"

I don't believe everyone has one person out there for them, no.
But I believe some people are soul mates and that it is pre-destined.

yeah, since we are technically everyone around us you'd think you have some things in common with others
and this isn't a topic on predestination (which is, "do we have control over the future" it's a topic on free will ("do we have control over ourselves now?"

druscilla_nesser:

spill_no_sick:

druscilla_nesser:

spill_no_sick:

I love how so much of what I said was just ignored
soulmates?
everyone has one person out there for them right?
if everyone has one person, and Jim and Sarah hook up and they shouldn't, did they just fuck it up for the rest of the world?

though me not believing in love isn't part of this discussion, it's due to chemicals and influences by other people that decide your "soul mates"

I don't believe everyone has one person out there for them, no.
But I believe some people are soul mates and that it is pre-destined.

yeah, since we are technically everyone around us you'd think you have some things in common with others
and this isn't a topic on predestination (which is, "do we have control over the future" it's a topic on free will ("do we have control over ourselves now?"

Do you think you have free will?
Or do you think it is destiny?

fine then enough with the misinterpereting what I said
it was "do you think what is going to now is destined" (which had to do with the religious side of it all so saying you aren't religious kind of makes it void)

spill_no_sick:

druscilla_nesser:

spill_no_sick:

druscilla_nesser:

spill_no_sick:

I love how so much of what I said was just ignored
soulmates?
everyone has one person out there for them right?
if everyone has one person, and Jim and Sarah hook up and they shouldn't, did they just fuck it up for the rest of the world?

though me not believing in love isn't part of this discussion, it's due to chemicals and influences by other people that decide your "soul mates"

I don't believe everyone has one person out there for them, no.
But I believe some people are soul mates and that it is pre-destined.

yeah, since we are technically everyone around us you'd think you have some things in common with others
and this isn't a topic on predestination (which is, "do we have control over the future" it's a topic on free will ("do we have control over ourselves now?"

Do you think you have free will?
Or do you think it is destiny?

fine then enough with the misinterpereting what I said
it was "do you think what is going to now is destined" (which had to do with the religious side of it all so saying you aren't religious kind of makes it void)

I am religious, however.
And as I stated, I believe a few things are pre-destined.
But for the most part I believe it is our free will and choices.
We shape our own destinies.

um...totaly, agreed(wait, i hate to say why, right?) ok then, the reason why i agree is that yes, our decisions are influenced by the people who surround us, the choices they make, the way they act, its where in saying "tell me who are your friends, and i will tell you who are you" comes from(and its true to the core). I will editthis in a second - maths lesson, - back now Now, as i was saying...your friends have great influence on your personality, they help you become who you are. Some people feel a greater needto be addicted to the outside world and the peopel around them, they need to be a part of the mass. Others, of course, do not have such a great need to be like everybody else, but feel much more comfortable exploring new styles and finding one that suits themselves much better than what is currently "in". Like myself(and my father, damn, nowi know from where i get most of these thoughts lol), the people who do not suffer from the big need to be accepted by our stiff society which consists of pink blonde haired preps, can achieve things more easily and dont break down at some random insults that would make a member of the mass cry. So yeah, my point is - the less you feel addicted, the better. Indepencance, independance is the key to survival and efficiency.