ID cards!!

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Lucifers Angel
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Lucifers Angel
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June 15th, 2006 at 02:15pm
ID cards good for tracking immigrants, says Blunkett
And everybody else, of course...
By John Lettice
Published Thursday 15th June 2006 16:10 GMT
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The 'tracking' capabilities of the UK ID card system, hotly disputed by Home Office ministers whenever the notion is floated, have been commended by no less a person than former Home Secretary David Blunkett. Speaking on the Today programme yesterday on the subject of amnesties for illegal immigrants, Blunkett said "it's impossible to have an amnesty without ID cards and a clean database, because you firstly don't have any incentives for people to actually come up front and register, and make themselves available, and secondly you have no means of tracking them."

This, he said, was the response he'd given to a similar question in 2003, during his tenure as Home Secretary, when he was also prime mover behind the ID cards scheme. Blunkett's notions here are a neat fit with the proposals for an ID card-related amnesty floated by the IPPR earlier this year. According to the IPPR, the ID card network's "internal controls" will make it easier for police to catch illegal immigrants, making it more practicable to introduce a regularisation process for illegal immigrants already in the UK, while strengthened border controls as pushed by Tony Blair, make it much harder for new illegals to get into the country.
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Blunkett, meanwhile, is suggesting that an amnesty could be used as an incentive to induce illegal immigrants to come out of the shadows, be given an ID card and go onto the books. Which you might note is precisely what The Register said, in our report of the IPPR suggestion, that a "cynical and despicable Home Secretary" would do, presenting the general amnesty in tough 'round up all the foreigners' garb. Note also that Blunkett is still grinding on about "a clean database". Blunkett pushed this line repeatedly during his time at the Home Office, and although (as The Reg habitually points out), a clean database is generally an empty one, it's perfectly natural for a Home Secretary confronted by multi-agency database hell to want to torch the lot and start with a clean slate.

Specifically, if we consider the immigration issue (actually that makes us feel dirty - we'll call it their immigration issue), we can see how the clean database isn't just important - it's vital to the survival of the whole project. In addition to maybe 500,000 illegal immigrants in-country, the Home Office theoretically ought to have current records of the immigration and work permit status of all the legal immigrants, all those on student visas, all those on visitors visas, and so. But we've been here before so we won't labour the point - briefly, it doesn't, and where it does/might have accurate records it needn't necessarily know where the records are or whether they are indeed accurate. So in reality the Immigration and Nationality Directorate (IND) is lacking a fit-for-purpose database covering millions, not hundreds of thousands, and building a new one from scratch would probably be cheaper than fixing the existing mess. Finding the existing data, checking it, disputing it with the subject/suspect and shoehorning it into the new "clean" database, on the other hand, would cause the entire operation to grind to a halt.

So here, the National Identity Register is the lifebelt, and it makes sense to pretty much forget the existing pooh-pile. Identifying legal immigrants and UK citizens via the NIR's interview and identity checking process oughtn't to be hard, but given the state of existing IND records it would be very hard indeed to deal those of debatable and illegal status. Nor, without the incentive to turn themselves in, are the illegal immigrants (or the ones who're just confused) going to make it easy for you to drag them to the filter. Amnesty, however, simplifies the process massively; illegal immigrants can be offered a one-time ticket to legitimisation, and then anybody who doesn't come forward or who arrives after the amnesty's over has only themselves to blame when IND comes down hard on them.

There are however some odd questions the Government will have to answer if an amnesty is ever to happen. How, for example, would the system tackle those on short term work or student visas? Does every last nanny win indefinite leave to remain? Do several hundred thousand lucky students get lifetime tickets to work just because they happen to be studying this year, and not last? If not, then why should these legitimate migrants known to the system be treated worse than illegal ones? And if yes, what would that do to the intricate regime constructed by Charles Clarke's Home Office just over a year ago (i.e., the one intended to leave low-skill jobs to the new EU entrants, and to encourage skilled migrants)? Even the clean break, if it happens, is surely going to turn out to be more complicated than anticipated.

And tracking, or as the IPPR puts it, "internal controls"? The IPPR associates these with the ID card providing "disincentives to enter a country as it is more difficult to live and work there", and a Blunkett speech from 2004 (at the IPPR!) gives us a clearer idea of how this would work. Currently, although companies theoretically face heavy fines for employing people who aren't legally entitled to work, the law is, as Blunkett said then, practically unenforceable because of the difficulties involved in establishing entitlement. This is largely because of the mind-boggling range of terms, conditions, proofs of entitlement and immigration stamps that are current, and is not necessarily an argument for ID cards. But in Blunkett's view the existence of ID cards as an absolute proof of identity and entitlement will mean that employers will have no excuse, and the legislation can be made to stick.

If employers at last really do face heavy fines for employing illegal immigrants, then they will clearly be incentivised to conduct NIR checks whenever they employ someone. Employers will therefore operate (and pay for) a major component of the internal control system, and it will indeed become more difficult for illegal immigrants to work here. Note also that forcing this burden onto the private sector is politically and financially far less painful than early deployment of the public sector controls in, for example, health, education or policing.

Does that count as "tracking"?* Not exactly, because it's more about trapping than tracking, and a system of internal controls would have to be far more pervasive than employment checks and a series of public sector entitlement checks before it got anywhere near a national movement database. But Tony Blair himself used the t-word recently when he presented e-borders and ID cards as the only viable fix for their immigration problem, and if one thinks of this as tracking down then it fits. With the NIR operating to specification (imagine, OK?) you've got current and previous addresses, current and previous employers, country exit and entry records, and an audit trail of any skirmishes with the police. It's not tracking as such, nor does it become impossible to disappear, but anybody who wants to is going to have to put rather more thought into the matter than was previously the case.

* Government denials that the ID card will track your movements tend to major on the card's RFID capability, rather than on NIR records. Having spent a little time denying that the card has RFID and describing the strangely RFID-like but mysteriously unthreatening radio capability it does have, the spokeperson will then extol the (allegedly...) excellent nature of the card's security, and then conclude that, obviously, it will not be possible for nefarious persons to suck data from the card, unbeknownst to the owner, as it passes by. Actually that's not strictly true, but actually, it's not the point - the database is the point. ®


I think that it will be a big violation of our freedom and the goverment will be able to track our every move and what we buy, and how mush money we earn and they will also have our bank details and know what we buy and how much money we spend, although i agree that we need to do somthing about the imigration issues i do not think this is the way to go? What do you all think? Should we be forced to carry these cards and also we will be expected to pay for these cards, so what do you all think?

also it will be an invasion of our privacy, they will know where we;ve been and what we do, this isnt right. What happened to our freedom to live?


this is anouther site i found on the matter:



Why you should renew your passport.

The Identity Cards Act 2006 turns your passport into a one-way ticket to control of your identity by the government. It means lifelong surveillance, and untold bureaucracy. This website, produced by the NO2ID campaign, is about how you can renew your passport and avoid being forced to register on the ID scheme database.

Please renew your passport this summer.

It is not too late. The UK Identity & Passport Service (UKIPS) has not yet changed passport renewal procedures. Our factsheet [hyperlinks to the right] explains how and why. Download it, pass it on to your friends, or print it out and distribute it.

You can apply to renew your passport online right now at the UK Passport Service website [use the 'Launch online application form in a new browser window' link] or request that they post you a paper form to fill in yourself.

Act now. Protect yourself later.

By renewing early in large numbers, we'll send a message to the politicians and bureaucrats who think that they can take control of who we are, and to the companies that hope to make a fortune ” at our expense ” helping them.

You may have heard that you'll be able to opt out of having an ID card if you renew your passport before 1st January 2010. But the card is not the point. Even if you chose not to have it, you would still have to pay for it. And you will get no choice about attending an official interview, producing numerous personal documents to be recorded, and having your fingerprints and eye scans taken for the records.

"Anyone who opts out in my opinion is foolish."
” Charles Clarke, on the passing of the Identity Cards Act 2006.

Ignore the sneering.

Once you are on the Register, you will never get off until it is abolished. But you'll be exposed to all the risks and dangers of the scheme immediately. The Home Office is building the most complex and intrusive ID control system in the world. Given their atrocious track record, it will certainly go wrong.

Once you are on the Register ” with or without a card ” you will also be forced to keep all the details that are kept about you up to date (and sort out any government errors).

Once you are on the Register you will face penalty charges for not telling the Home Office if you move house or if any other of your registered details change.

Far from being 'foolish', renewing your passport to avoid all this is just plain common sense. In the 10 years that follow, NO2ID and many others will be working to end the ID scheme and keep Britain a free country.

"... anyone who feels strongly enough about the linkage not to want to be issued with an ID card in the initial phase will be free to surrender their existing passport and apply for a new passport before the designation order takes effect."
” Charles Clarke, on 21st March 2006.

The former Home Secretary himself said you could do it. Don't delay ” his replacement may have other ideas....
NeoSteph
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 02:18pm
I think the price for one of these cards is going to be 100 pounds

just to let you know, whent hey comeinto force you have to have one when your passport expires, so if you send off for a new passport this year, you will not need a ID card for 7 years, XD.
Lucifers Angel
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June 15th, 2006 at 02:21pm
NeoSteph:
I think the price for one of these cards is going to be 100 pounds

just to let you know, whent hey comeinto force you have to have one when your passport expires, so if you send off for a new passport this year, you will not need a ID card for 7 years, XD.


i missed that thanks Neosteph! i will not carry one i believe it is vilating my privacy.
Lucifers Angel
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June 15th, 2006 at 02:28pm
Identity Cards

Liberty remains opposed to the ID Card scheme. Though we wont be forced to have an ID card when renewing passports until 2010, we will have our details entered onto the National Identity Register much sooner.

If completed, the NIR would be the world’s biggest biometric database, holding fifty two pieces of information on every adult who remains in the UK for longer than three months.

They will be a huge waste of money (both in terms of public tax and straight from our pockets). They will change our society and the way we live, forever.
Kurtni
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 02:29pm
How Much is a British Pund in comparison with an American Dollar?

http://www.x-rates.com/cgi-bin/cgicalc.cgi?value=189&base=USD

Is that conversion Chart accurate? Is it rought 189 dollars?
Lucifers Angel
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June 15th, 2006 at 02:30pm
www.renewforfreedom.org

here is a site i found!
Lucifers Angel
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June 15th, 2006 at 02:31pm
I_worship_tre_Cool:
How Much is a British Pund in comparison with an American Dollar?

http://www.x-rates.com/cgi-bin/cgicalc.cgi?value=189&base=USD

Is that conversion Chart accurate? Is it rought 189 dollars?


i dont know sorry
NeoSteph
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 02:35pm
I_worship_tre_Cool:
How Much is a British Pund in comparison with an American Dollar?

http://www.x-rates.com/cgi-bin/cgicalc.cgi?value=189&base=USD

Is that conversion Chart accurate? Is it rought 189 dollars?


about that
Kurtni
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 02:40pm
NeoSteph:
I_worship_tre_Cool:
How Much is a British Pund in comparison with an American Dollar?

http://www.x-rates.com/cgi-bin/cgicalc.cgi?value=189&base=USD

Is that conversion Chart accurate? Is it rought 189 dollars?


about that
That Could get to be exspensive. Do you have to renew them often? Or have they not worked out all the detailed yet.

Google here I come ~~
Matt Smith
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 02:41pm
I_worship_tre_Cool:
How Much is a British Pund in comparison with an American Dollar?

http://www.x-rates.com/cgi-bin/cgicalc.cgi?value=189&base=USD

Is that conversion Chart accurate? Is it rought 189 dollars?

Yup, thats pretty accurate.
Kurtni
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 02:45pm
NeoSteph:
I think the price for one of these cards is going to be 100 pounds

just to let you know, whent hey comeinto force you have to have one when your passport expires, so if you send off for a new passport this year, you will not need a ID card for 7 years, XD.


http://www.trevor-mendham.com/civil-liberties/identity-cards/
Doesnt look like it does much

People applying for or renewing a passport or other designated document will be able to opy out of receiving an ID Card until 2010. However even people who opt out will still have to pay for the card they don't get.
Worse, even though people will be able to opt out of the largely symbolic piece of plastic they will still be forced to be entered on the identity database. This is compulsory registration for the majority of the British people.
The database has always been the threat. The database was what the government always wanted. The database is what they now have.
NeoSteph
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 02:48pm
it's just scary Shocked

france here I come.
Matt Smith
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June 15th, 2006 at 02:51pm
I_worship_tre_Cool:
The database has always been the threat. The database was what the government always wanted. The database is what they now have.

Shocked
-shudder-

As you people know this kind of stuff really makes the paranoia levels spike. Its what 1984 does to ya, and that might be fiction, but that is chilling fiction that has every possibility of coming true with these ID cards and 'databases'.
NeoSteph
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 02:53pm
don't worry theirs plenty of room for us all in Australia

*gives meg cup of tea*
Lucifers Angel
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June 15th, 2006 at 02:54pm
Bloodraine:
I_worship_tre_Cool:
The database has always been the threat. The database was what the government always wanted. The database is what they now have.

Shocked
-shudder-

As you people know this kind of stuff really makes the paranoia levels spike. Its what 1984 does to ya, and that might be fiction, but that is chilling fiction that has every possibility of coming true with these ID cards and 'databases'.


i refuse to get one and i will not be forced into getting one. it has been prooven even with the recent london bombings that these cards would not have prevented that happening
Kurtni
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 02:58pm
Raspa I have a Big House, you can all move in with me and my cats.
Kurtni
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 03:01pm
Magne:
Bloodraine:
I_worship_tre_Cool:
The database has always been the threat. The database was what the government always wanted. The database is what they now have.

Shocked
-shudder-

As you people know this kind of stuff really makes the paranoia levels spike. Its what 1984 does to ya, and that might be fiction, but that is chilling fiction that has every possibility of coming true with these ID cards and 'databases'.


i refuse to get one and i will not be forced into getting one. it has been prooven even with the recent london bombings that these cards would not have prevented that happening


What if I simply refused to use the card?

You will not be required to use a card unless you wish to work, use the banking or health system, vote, buy a house, drive, travel or receive benefits. As Mr Blunkett advised Parliament: "The issuing of a card does not force anyone to use it, although in terms of drivers or passport users, or if services - whether public or private - required some proof of identity before expenditure was laid out, without proof of identity and therefore entitlement to do it I doubt whether non-use of it would last very long."

Taken from the Q &A page.
http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/uk/uk-idcard-faq.html#complex
Matt Smith
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 03:04pm
NeoSteph:
don't worry theirs plenty of room for us all in Australia

*gives meg cup of tea*

I swear if this isn't an inscentive for me to emigrate nothing will be.
Kurtni
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 03:06pm
Have similar schemes been proposed or adopted in other countries?

Yes. Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand have very similar card systems. China is moving rapidly in this direction with the development of a compulsory ID database and card system. However no common law country in the world has ever accepted the idea of a peace-time ID card. The Australian and New Zealand public have rejected similar proposals outright. Canada has never agreed to such a scheme. ID card proposals have always been rejected by the United States Congress. No European country has such a comprehensive or invasive card system.

Ok, read that Bold part, then this.

"A difficulty will occur with travel to the United States if we do not align what we are doing with the changes that are taking place around us... Because the United States is considering new ways of accrediting identification,"

Yeah, but The United States never accepted plans like that because they are crazy and intrusive. This is a scary Issue, I can't believe I didnt know about this sooner!
Kurtni
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Mibba Blog
June 15th, 2006 at 03:10pm
How much will the scheme cost the taxpayer?

Somewhere between £1.5 and £3 billion over 13 years. However, the history of ID card cost estimates in other countries (notably Australia and the Philippines) has risen sharply toward the implementation stage.
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