Human Nature

So often on this board, I see the excuse of "It is(n't) natural". However, we so rarely define nature. Some example arguments of what I'm talking about;

"War is in our nature"
"Peace would be unnatural"
"Perfection isn't natural"
"Gay sex is unnatural"
"Love is love, and love is natural, so gay marriage should be allowed"

I don't know why, but its something that personally pisses me off. How do we define nature? When I think of nature, I think of more basic forms of existence to ours. We've evolved beyond the concept of what is natural. People seem to, when debating, use it as an excuse. Oh, but its (un)natural.

My first question that I would propose to you all is "What is natural? Does it still apply to humans today?"
Rats eat each other’s dead bodies, yet is that natural for us? Kurtni, Steph, this was for you

Another point I would like to discuss is how we violate nature. Plastic surgery violates nature, yet I believe it is a good thing. Heart transplants, which I also think are great, involve taking someone else's heart and putting it into your body. Certainly not natural, and you have to take drugs for the rest of your life to stop your own body rejecting the organ. Shows how much that goes against nature. IVF, Gene Therapy, Cloning, Stem Cell Research. All of these things can be deemed unnatural.

My second question to you all is "When is it acceptable to violate nature?"
We seem to violate nature when it suits us, yet abuse it when we need an excuse.

And thirdly; "What are the benefits and what are the bad things about violating nature?"

Go.

"nature" should only be used to discribe the inevitable
a lot of times (like in discussions of war) some are idealistic enough to believe it can go away with time
no, it's just human nature
but so is dying, and we strive to prevent as much as we can, and we have made progress, but human nature says it will happen often

I believe things that can't be helped are a product of nature.

I think nature died along time ago when the concept is being applied to humans. Seriously, everything that we may consider natural is violated. It's natural to eat, yet we have anorexia. It's human nature to reproduce, yet we have homosexuality and people who just don't want kids. The Nature vs. Nuture debate is what it comes down to. Do you believe we have the ability to choose for ourselves or are our behaviors inherited through genetics and predetermined. I find that to be illogical and impossible. To think that our enviorment has no effect on us would be silly.

Take phobias for example, Im terrified of birds. To someone else this phobia is completely illogical, just like I might find someones fear of heights to be silly. Why am I afraid of birds? Long Story involving violent geese at a park, but the story itself isnt the point. The point is an enviormental factor caused it. If I hadn't had that experience at the park, I would probably love birds. Just like if someone else hadn't had a bad experience with heights they wouldn't be afraid of heights. I don't think bad experiences are the only way to cause phobias. I've never had a bad experience with spiders but I'm also scared of them. Partly because my mom was scared of them and when I was little if she found one she'd flip out, but also because I made the choice of thinking spiders looked scary. Bringing me to my next point, free will.

Free will allows us to do basically whatever we want. Humans don't have instincts anymore. We have the ability to choose to do what we want. Maybe the ability to use free will could be defined as human nature. Humans are able to decide all kinds of things, from the food they eat to the profession they choose to enter. Humans can experiment, we can use logic. Animals think, but humans think in a totally different way. You can't compare human's society to the rest of the animal kingdoms instinctual behaviours and their nature. We may have had that at one time depending on your beliefs reguarding evolution, but in any case modern humans don't have a "nature" today.

Kurtni:

I think nature died along time ago when the concept is being applied to humans. Seriously, everything that we may consider natural is violated. It's natural to eat, yet we have anorexia. It's human nature to reproduce, yet we have homosexuality and people who just don't want kids. The Nature vs. Nuture debate is what it comes down to. Do you believe we have the ability to choose for ourselves or are our behaviors inherited through genetics and predetermined. I find that to be illogical and impossible. To think that our enviorment has no effect on us would be silly.

Take phobias for example, Im terrified of birds. To someone else this phobia is completely illogical, just like I might find someones fear of heights to be silly. Why am I afraid of birds? Long Story involving violent geese at a park, but the story itself isnt the point. The point is an enviormental factor caused it. If I hadn't had that experience at the park, I would probably love birds. Just like if someone else hadn't had a bad experience with heights they wouldn't be afraid of heights. I don't think bad experiences are the only way to cause phobias. I've never had a bad experience with spiders but I'm also scared of them. Partly because my mom was scared of them and when I was little if she found one she'd flip out, but also because I made the choice of thinking spiders looked scary. Bringing me to my next point, free will.

Free will allows us to do basically whatever we want. Humans don't have instincts anymore. We have the ability to choose to do what we want. Maybe the ability to use free will could be defined as human nature. Humans are able to decide all kinds of things, from the food they eat to the profession they choose to enter. Humans can experiment, we can use logic. Animals think, but humans think in a totally different way. You can't compare human's society to the rest of the animal kingdoms instinctual behaviours and their nature. We may have had that at one time depending on your beliefs reguarding evolution, but in any case modern humans don't have a "nature" today.

I'm with her.

I think whatever natural instincts we had slowly died off over the passage of time.

^ Agreed. The only "natural" thing we have left is human curiosity. Some people say that humans are built to be curious and to explore. So we do that, breaking a million other natural laws along the way.

There some parts of us that just don't go away. Tribe arguments were settled with battles using clubs and teeth. Tribes became countries, clubs and teeth became nuclear warheads. If you ask me, we can overcome the violent part of our minds just as we overcame our "uncivilized" nature over the past million or so years. The whole war aspect seems to be the the uncivilized part of us, but one might argue that it's necessary for civilization.

I guess we can overcome natural urges though. We've developed that. We don't have to eat. Most animals in the wild would jump upon the first morsel of food they found after days of starvation. We don't have to pick our noses. This sounds silly, but it's kind of true. When there's something bothering you in your nose, your first instict will be to pick it. Instead, you put on a snobby face, get a tissue and blow your nose. As for me, I pick my nose when no one is looking.

I read an article in American Scientific/Scientific American a few months ago. The reason American teens get into car crashes is because of instincive behavior. There are two types of thingies. Endo-something and exo-something. One of them is what you do by nature. The other overrides it and does the smart thing. So if you're about to run into another car and you're 17, you follow through with instict and freak out.

If you're 45 and an experienced driver, you know how to override that and break or change lanes quickly. Now, this seems to be an issue only in societies where children begin to drift away from adults after a certain age and grow up with their peers. Where growing childern and young adults spend more time with parents and adults, things like that don't happen as often.

WeFoundTheDuck:

Kurtni:

I think nature died along time ago when the concept is being applied to humans. Seriously, everything that we may consider natural is violated. It's natural to eat, yet we have anorexia. It's human nature to reproduce, yet we have homosexuality and people who just don't want kids. The Nature vs. Nuture debate is what it comes down to. Do you believe we have the ability to choose for ourselves or are our behaviors inherited through genetics and predetermined. I find that to be illogical and impossible. To think that our enviorment has no effect on us would be silly.

Take phobias for example, Im terrified of birds. To someone else this phobia is completely illogical, just like I might find someones fear of heights to be silly. Why am I afraid of birds? Long Story involving violent geese at a park, but the story itself isnt the point. The point is an enviormental factor caused it. If I hadn't had that experience at the park, I would probably love birds. Just like if someone else hadn't had a bad experience with heights they wouldn't be afraid of heights. I don't think bad experiences are the only way to cause phobias. I've never had a bad experience with spiders but I'm also scared of them. Partly because my mom was scared of them and when I was little if she found one she'd flip out, but also because I made the choice of thinking spiders looked scary. Bringing me to my next point, free will.

Free will allows us to do basically whatever we want. Humans don't have instincts anymore. We have the ability to choose to do what we want. Maybe the ability to use free will could be defined as human nature. Humans are able to decide all kinds of things, from the food they eat to the profession they choose to enter. Humans can experiment, we can use logic. Animals think, but humans think in a totally different way. You can't compare human's society to the rest of the animal kingdoms instinctual behaviours and their nature. We may have had that at one time depending on your beliefs reguarding evolution, but in any case modern humans don't have a "nature" today.

I'm with her.

I think whatever natural instincts we had slowly died off over the passage of time.

me too. No choice but to surrender to the all mighty Kurtni, totaly agree

Homophpbia occurs a great deal lot amongst the animal kingdom. It is a very natural thing in my opinion. And many species of animals and plants will starve themselves for long periods of time when they have to.

Cloning happens in nature, so does cross germination which is kinda like gene altering. I think that almost everything that humans do is natural, just not always applicable to humans. Flying is a perfectly natural thing. Humans have used perfectly natural designs to be able to fly, but we were never 'meant' to unless you believe in fate and that humans were meant to have a large brain.

Adding to the idea of the 'nature vs. nurture' debate, in genetics, there is a theory that environment has an effect on all inhertitable traits. Doesn't the environment come from nature though? Not talking about grass and tree and that kind stuff, but the society in which one is brought up. It has been shaped by our past and the way in which we behaved. Fundamentally, it is the same thing in that in comes from the same thing, but one has changed with time and the other has remained the same.

Anji:

Homophpbia occurs a great deal lot amongst the animal kingdom. It is a very natural thing in my opinion. And many species of animals and plants will starve themselves for long periods of time when they have to.

How do plants starve themselves?

Anji:

Adding to the idea of the 'nature vs. nurture' debate, in genetics, there is a theory that environment has an effect on all inhertitable traits. Doesn't the environment come from nature though? Not talking about grass and tree and that kind stuff, but the society in which one is brought up. It has been shaped by our past and the way in which we behaved. Fundamentally, it is the same thing in that in comes from the same thing, but one has changed with time and the other has remained the same.

What, like Natural Selection?
Kinda, the environment indirectly picks all of our traits because only the best adapted ever survive. Such as Darwin's finches, they all had different types of beak depending on what food they were going to eat. Nature made it that way because only the best adapted would live long enough to breed, so they would pass on their ~groovy~ characteristics.

lyrical_mess:

Anji:

Homophpbia occurs a great deal lot amongst the animal kingdom. It is a very natural thing in my opinion. And many species of animals and plants will starve themselves for long periods of time when they have to.

How do plants starve themselves?

Maybe they stop making all their glucose and keeping it for themselves and invest it on making new seeds instead?

Bloodraine:

Anji:

Homophpbia occurs a great deal lot amongst the animal kingdom. It is a very natural thing in my opinion. And many species of animals and plants will starve themselves for long periods of time when they have to.

lyrical_mess:

How do plants starve themselves?

Maybe they stop making all their glucose and keeping it for themselves and invest it on making new seeds instead?

Yeah...sorta. There's obvious flora like cacti which will store starch and not use it at all for many years in extreme cases. But, also in rainforests, with excess water and too little light for photosynthesis to occur, sometimes trees will not absorb any water because most of it's energy is being put into growing tall instead of wide, or branchier. When you over water grass especially, but also most other plants, they will stop consuming the water and usually kill themselves off, instead of having the water do it for them. Plants will withdraw roots when they need to.