[Insert abortion here]

lyrical_mess:

A child is not property. Humans are not property, in the flesh or still in the womb.

And the woman only made half of the baby. She feeds the baby through herself and keeps it safe for nine months. But there is still sperm. Most times, when a couple concieves, the man does not say anything along the lines of "You know, when this is over, my sperm is in your fallopian tubes, so its all yours buddy!"

The child is still in the care and responsibility of both parents.

So a father should be able to force his partner to carry his child to term.
Wow, that's wonderful.
That's the start of overturning Roe vs. Wade, deciding that a woman's body isn't hers to control.
Please, let's regress to hanger abortions.
I'm fucking thrilled.

Now I didn't say that the father has the right to force anything. I said that the woman can't decide without letting her partner have a say, if he has chosen to stay and raise the child. They have to work it out together. If the woman should want an abortion, she needs to justify her actions with the child's father.

druscilla; in rags:

Anji:

Polexia?:

Women should have control over their own bodies; they have to carry the child during pregnancy and undergo child-birth. No-one else carries the child for her; it will be her responsibility alone, and thus she should have the sole right to decide. These are important events in a woman’s life, and if she does not want to go through the full nine months and subsequent birth, then she should have the right to choose not to do so. Whether a foetus has rights or not, or can really be called a ‘child’, is exactly what is at issue. Everyone agrees that children have rights and shouldn’t be killed. Not everyone agrees that foetuses of two, four, eight, or even twenty weeks are children.

We aren't talking about a woman's body, it's what's in it. The child is only half her's. It takes two to make a person. The father or other mother in today's world, has to get a say as well. There are more mother's today that go through pregnancy alone, and fair enough for them, if they want to abort then fine. But for couples who disagree with eachother, it's going to be both their child. The mother doesn't go through pregnancy alone, she has her partner.

And her partner doesn't have a womb.
He shouldn't be able to force the woman to keep her child.
I feel sorry for him if he wants the child, but that doesn't make it his choice.
It's hers.

Who said anything about 'force'?

If he can make her see why they should keep the baby, well good for him, If he can't tough luck, but no matter what, he should have a say. All of a sudden it's like only women exist in this world.

druscilla; in rags:

lyrical_mess:

A child is not property. Humans are not property, in the flesh or still in the womb.

And the woman only made half of the baby. She feeds the baby through herself and keeps it safe for nine months. But there is still sperm. Most times, when a couple concieves, the man does not say anything along the lines of "You know, when this is over, my sperm is in your fallopian tubes, so its all yours buddy!"

The child is still in the care and responsibility of both parents.

So a father should be able to force his partner to carry his child to term.
Wow, that's wonderful.
That's the start of overturning Roe vs. Wade, deciding that a woman's body isn't hers to control.
Please, let's regress to hanger abortions.
I'm fucking thrilled.

Oh yeah. To have an opinion over one's body and to take away contorl over one's body is exactly the same thing.

Anji:

Polexia?:

Women should have control over their own bodies; they have to carry the child during pregnancy and undergo child-birth. No-one else carries the child for her; it will be her responsibility alone, and thus she should have the sole right to decide. These are important events in a woman’s life, and if she does not want to go through the full nine months and subsequent birth, then she should have the right to choose not to do so. Whether a foetus has rights or not, or can really be called a ‘child’, is exactly what is at issue. Everyone agrees that children have rights and shouldn’t be killed. Not everyone agrees that foetuses of two, four, eight, or even twenty weeks are children.

We aren't talking about a woman's body, it's what's in it. The child is only half her's. It takes two to make a person. The father or other mother in today's world, has to get a say as well. There are more mother's today that go through pregnancy alone, and fair enough for them, if they want to abort then fine. But for couples who disagree with eachother, it's going to be both their child. The mother doesn't go through pregnancy alone, she has her partner.

what if shes raped? i doubt the rapist whould help her though pregnancy

Polexia?:

Anji:

Polexia?:

Women should have control over their own bodies; they have to carry the child during pregnancy and undergo child-birth. No-one else carries the child for her; it will be her responsibility alone, and thus she should have the sole right to decide. These are important events in a woman’s life, and if she does not want to go through the full nine months and subsequent birth, then she should have the right to choose not to do so. Whether a foetus has rights or not, or can really be called a ‘child’, is exactly what is at issue. Everyone agrees that children have rights and shouldn’t be killed. Not everyone agrees that foetuses of two, four, eight, or even twenty weeks are children.

We aren't talking about a woman's body, it's what's in it. The child is only half her's. It takes two to make a person. The father or other mother in today's world, has to get a say as well. There are more mother's today that go through pregnancy alone, and fair enough for them, if they want to abort then fine. But for couples who disagree with eachother, it's going to be both their child. The mother doesn't go through pregnancy alone, she has her partner.

what if shes raped? i doubt the rapist whould help her though pregnancy

That's why I said that 'There are more mother's today that go through pregnancy alone, and fair enough.'

Reading from a couple of page back I see that I sparked quite the controversy…

Great! That’s the whole point of a public forum, debate and discuss. And maybe if you’re lucky make a few friends in the process.

It isn’t good to just regurgitate what others ‘trained’ you to say or think.
The system it’s only interested on its own propagation and survival at the expense of the quality of life of its ‘subjects’.

Exercise the grey matter. It’s edifying the soul.
When we work hard trying to figure things out on our own, we’re growing as individuals. Reversely, repeating like parrots without analyzing the issues turns us into obedient little robots.

At the end of the day, at least on this particular subject people would stay firmly divided on two groups. The question here isn’t, or at least shouldn’t be which side is right and which is wrong, in other words which side should suck the f*** up.
The matter should be to learn to recognize the other side right to uphold their view and act in accordance to such position, and of corse vice-versa otherwise we’re just being biased bigots.
Problem is that people is too quick to take the short sighted position of telling others what to do, how to do it when to do it. That is the formula for fascism.

- double post -

PentatonicA:

Reading from a couple of page back I see that I sparked quite the controversy…

Great! That’s the whole point of a public forum, debate and discuss. And maybe if you’re lucky make a few friends in the process.

It isn’t good to just regurgitate what others ‘trained’ you to say or think.
The system it’s only interested on its own propagation and survival at the expense of the quality of life of its ‘subjects’.

Exercise the grey matter. It’s edifying the soul.
When we work hard trying to figure things out on our own, we’re growing as individuals. Reversely, repeating like parrots without analyzing the issues turns us into obedient little robots.

At the end of the day, at least on this particular subject people would stay firmly divided on two groups. The question here isn’t, or at least shouldn’t be which side is right and which is wrong, in other words which side should suck the f*** up.
The matter should be to learn to recognize the other side right to uphold their view and act in accordance to such position, and of corse vice-versa otherwise we’re just being biased bigots.
Problem is that people is too quick to take the short sighted position of telling others what to do, how to do it when to do it. That is the formula for fascism.

This has nothing to do with abortion, but thanks for supporting the freedom of debate.

druscilla; in rags:

This has nothing to do with abortion, [...]

For you it might have nothing to do with abortion, but if you read carefully you’ll realize it does. Specially and particularly the last part of it.

---------------------------------------

My message was a general response to everyone that contributed their opinion following up the theme presented in my post on page 56.
I’d like to answer to everybody individually but sadly I don’t have the time for that.
With some posters I agreed with others not so much, but it was encouraging to see fresh ideas popping up and new twists to an old debate leaving in evidence the importance of healthy and civil deliberation.

In any debate there’s a time to dissect the minute factors involved, and there’s a time to stand back and try to see the bigger picture.
Abortion is an intricate subject, not because it’s complex on itself but because of all the satellite issues connected to it; such as sex, reproduction, relationships, morality, philosophy, religious believes, science, legislation, psychology, life, death (and I hope I didn’t leave anything out) revolving around it. This means that it might take you a long time to come to any conclusions and the proof of this is that here we are in page 58.
Everything that has a beginning has an end, but with certain topics people would like not to see the end of it, and leave the whole thing behind a veil of an unsolvable mystery and turn the whole abortion thing into a sort of “chicken and the egg� conundrum.

The subjects of life, or death freaks people out. And abortion has both, so it’s a double whammy.
The points of entry and exit to this world are heavily charged and guarded by metaphysical factors that I’m not going to discuss on this occasion but this is one of the reasons why people are so jumpy around them.

Someone mentioned that aborting is “murder�, the obliged mantra of “pro-lifers�.
I’m not pointing any fingers to nobody specifically here and I’m not saying all pro-lifers are the same, but I did encounter many cases where they tend to be quite hypocritical. They say “abortion is murder�, yet the most proactive of them come from right wing political inclination born again Christians (although not exclusively, they come in all religious forms) that support illegal and savage wars in the middle east. You see, war is not murder for them but abortion is.
Abortion is murder they say and some of them are prepared to go to extreme lengths to stop it if they can, but I have yet to see a single one of these activist pro-lifers to help the mother or the child once its out of the womb, or try to get involved in the upbringing and welfare of the “life� they “helped� to save.
It’s not unusual to see that some pro-lifers are the same ones that look down on single mothers collecting social security checks and hear them say: “These women all they know about is to sit at home all day, get banged up and breed like rats, and all is coming out of my taxes!�

If one is caught up in everything outside oneself, one has no chance to look within and see what is wrong, there. This is the role of ego. And this is why some people want to get into other people's wombs, to try to find fault there, to avoid ever having to look deeply within themselves, at their own wrongs, delusion, ignorance, and so on.

Society is, ironically, enormously anti-women. The predominantly male establishment has in the past decreed that it was best for a woman to have a hysterectomy (which would also keep her from having any children) as a means of preventing her from becoming "too emotional." This was perfectly okay — an approved medical procedure — to keep women "in their place." It seems that everyone else has a vote in what happens to a woman's body except her; and men seem to control the vote, in this "democracy."
We see the anti-women agenda in the glass ceilings in the business world, where women are always treated as less than equal. And we find it in every organized religion. The truth is, abortion is not just about the fetus, it is about the woman, too.

Abortion, like every other social issue, is about power. It is about control. It is about control by those who have power over those who do not. And, it has little to do with what is right, good, or true in reality. Society has its own agenda. And, if you are not one of the "fortunate" and "successful" and "moral" people in the majority then heaven help you, you damn sinner, because you are going to hell — after society ensures that you suffer as much as possible, while you are still here.

^
But isn't this the specific discussion thread?
[To the beginning part of your statement?]

I don’t need you to take on the role of sheep dog to point out that I’m straying off the flock.
I’m perfectly capable of staying focused on the subject matter on my own terms and timing as much as I’m competent enough to bring other related points forward to enrich the discussion when I consider it pertinent.

So discussing the fact that we can debate gives us more to debate about on the topic of abortion?

Yeah, thanks for clearing that pile of nonsense up for me.

Can we not debate about debating because that whole conversation up there ^ was really annoying and slightly confusing.

.

@ PentatonicA.

With regards to your statements relating to people 'parroting' beliefs about abortion, beliefs which are fed to them and taught. I myself have spent the past 12 years in Catholic education, and have never been taught a dogma regarding Abortion.

Surely, if I can make it this far, other people will too?

I think it is somewhat foolish to assume people are regugitating other people's teachings when it comes to subjects like Abortion. It isn't a subject which is 'taught', you have to make your own mind up about it.

lyrical_mess:

Can we not debate about debating because that whole conversation up there ^ was really annoying and slightly confusing.

They're just trying to crack eachother arguements.

Anji:

lyrical_mess:

Can we not debate about debating because that whole conversation up there ^ was really annoying and slightly confusing.

They're just trying to crack eachother arguements.

Eachother refering to other people and this is their 'allience of forces' if you will.

I'm going to shut up now to make sure this ( < ) dosen't become a part of that ( ^ ).

Bloodraine:

@ PentatonicA.

With regards to your statements relating to people 'parroting' beliefs about abortion, beliefs which are fed to them and taught. I myself have spent the past 12 years in Catholic education, and have never been taught a dogma regarding Abortion.

Surely, if I can make it this far, other people will too?

I think it is somewhat foolish to assume people are regugitating other people's teachings when it comes to subjects like Abortion. It isn't a subject which is 'taught', you have to make your own mind up about it.

You don't have to. You can easily be influenced by others on this subject, or blindly confrom to someone elses views and take them on as your own. And really, do you ever form any opinion you have totally on your own? Every single thing you thing is based on things you were taught before. How you choose to apply what you're taught is your choice. Some people choose to think for themselves, others choose to join a flock and go with the flow.

I think its the mother's choice. No one else should make that choice.