Is Religion The Root Of All Evil?

bjtp:

Anji:

bjtp:

...And question their own beliefs.

Sorry, I had to quote this too, yeah, you can't just apply this to religious people and say that that's that. It's applicable to atheists as well.

Oh I'm not saying it isn't applicable to everyone, of course it is, but I have found personally that religious people in particular have almost an inbuilt reflex to shut down at a certain point and not to push on with questioning themselves. From my own experience, I have arrived at the opinion of athiesm precisely because I questioned my beliefs.

I thought you were refering to only pious people. Soryz.

The thing is, religion is also sound in tradition, and habit. It's alright to question them, but to even to disagree with them isn't the worst possible thing you could do. The one worst way you can insult a religious person is to tell them that their own morals, values, beliefs, way of life, that it doesn't exist, that it's absurd, not flawed, but absurd. It's the utmost insult. This is what Dawkins does and it's dreadful, it's horrible.

People can't live without habit, it's a fact. Religion just becomes a part of that habit, a way of life, it's true for them, this is where Dawkins shows his weakness, that he can't even empathise for those who he believes are lost in the absurdity of life.

I said I was going to sleep and here I am debating even more.

bjtp:

Yes, he reckons that no one thing is the root of all evil. However, it is the root of quite a lot of evil. I think the first half he spends mostly defending himself against the attacks which he felt sure were going to come against him, and he wanted to specifically lay out his arguement and needed to do a lot of groundwork so that what he was saying could not be misconstrued.

I didn't see much defensive word usage. I'd expect a more retained, almost more formal approach from a writer who I respect and who is as professional as he is and who is intellegent enough to do so already and who is Richard Dawkins for Christ's sake.

I'm sorry. Feel free to take it up again tomorrow.

I know what you're saying, and I get it, because my mother believes in God, and I don't have the heart to 'take her on'. Maybe it is horrible to lay bare the fact that what people believe is non-existant, and as you put i, 'absurd', but isn't it better to know the truth? Wouldn't it be better if people poured their time, energy, money, protests and anger into something which is real? Science? Humanity? The environment? Nature?

Rather than causing wars, showing bigotry against those who are different, and prejudice against people, for no reason other than this false belief that they base their life around. Just because people are used to something, are comforted by it, does not mean that it shouldn't be questioned, or subject to critical and logical thinking.

Anji:

People can't live without habit, it's a fact.

You could live without religion, it isn't as if other habits don't exist.

And where is your proof of this "fact", honestly. I'm sure there are plenty of people who live without any consistency to their lives.

Anji:

I didn't see much defensive word usage. I'd expect a more retained, almost more formal approach from a writer who I respect and who is as professional as he is and who is intellegent enough to do so already and who is Richard Dawkins for Christ's sake.

To be honest the way he writes doesn't really bother me as much as the ideas he puts across. I'm not arguing as to whether or not The God Delusion is well written, rather than it is an excellent book, as it gets people thinking.

bjtp:

Anji:

I didn't see much defensive word usage. I'd expect a more retained, almost more formal approach from a writer who I respect and who is as professional as he is and who is intellegent enough to do so already and who is Richard Dawkins for Christ's sake.

To be honest the way he writes doesn't really bother me as much as the ideas he puts across. I'm not arguing as to whether or not The God Delusion is well written, rather than it is an excellent book, as it gets people thinking.

Yeah, I know I over analyse things way too much, but it did bother me that much because I thought it'd be so much better and so much proper and persuasive and good, and his theories would for sure be even more sound if it was written better.
And I know he can write loads better, too.

I believe that religion isn't the problem.
Isn't religion supposed to help you make moral decisions and make you a better person? It's when people forget get that that things go wrong.
The people who can't accept that other people believe in different things and the people who think their religion is superior are the ones causing the problem.

Kurtni:

Anji:

People can't live without habit, it's a fact.

You could live without religion, it isn't as if other habits don't exist.

And where is your proof of this "fact", honestly. I'm sure there are plenty of people who live without any consistency to their lives.

There is always consistency in the way we live, nobody can live, honestly without a routine in life, whether it's celebrating birthdays or the time that you take your meal, every person on Earth is tied to habit, routine. For more information, look up Satre.

Anji:

There is always consistency in the way we live, nobody can live, honestly without a routine in life, whether it's celebrating birthdays or the time that you take your meal, every person on Earth is tied to habit, routine. For more information, look up Satre.

You keep saying there is consistency... but you have yet to prove that we couldn't live without it. Where is your proof that every single person on the planet lives consistently? Not every has the luxary of being able to celebrate a birthday, let alone even know when theres is and they still survive. Not everyone has the luxary of being able to choose when they can and cannot eat. People live unstable lives all the time, consistency isn't necessary, and for you to call it a fact it incorrect. Not to mention that what someone considers consistent is an opinion in itself.

Kurtni:

Anji:

There is always consistency in the way we live, nobody can live, honestly without a routine in life, whether it's celebrating birthdays or the time that you take your meal, every person on Earth is tied to habit, routine. For more information, look up Satre.

You keep saying there is consistency... but you have yet to prove that we couldn't live without it. Where is your proof that every single person on the planet lives consistently? Not every has the luxary of being able to celebrate a birthday, let alone even know when theres is and they still survive. Not everyone has the luxary of being able to choose when they can and cannot eat. People live unstable lives all the time, consistency isn't necessary, and for you to call it a fact it incorrect. Not to mention that what someone considers consistent is an opinion in itself.

It's not consistency I'm talking about, it's habit, and they are two different things. My first sentence in the previous post is incorrect, thank you for pointing that out to me. Someone very wise once said that 'habit is the great deadener', but what choice do we have in the face of the economically oppressed? It is essential to form habit in life, to get up every morning, to eat, to do something in life. This is even more essential for the poor. To do otherwise would surely lead to a nihilistic stance on life and most probably suicide when encountered with the fact that life is absurd. There may not be any meaning in life, but it is certain that we must find our own meaning and to do so, we then create habit. Humans organise things in a catagorised manner, it's human nature to do so. We divide up time, to give a day structure. And we create 'structure', to give our lives meanings. Another wise person said that 'religion is the opiate of the masses', you could say that this means that the prolertariats are living under a facade which keeps them oppressed and good for work. Reading against the grain, a further analysis, and I think what Karl Marx actually meant was that it is essential for the prolertariats to live this facade in order to give their lives meaning. It is necessary.

Oh, right. I forgot my proof. Um, proof that habit is necessary, and consistency as well is that when astronauts go up into space, I don't know if you know this or not, but many of them go mad up there. Yeah, they come back quite often as nut cases.

You see, in space there is no day and night. The divisions we apply to time mean nothing up there, the second, minute, and hour hand of the clock mean nothing. Also, their perception of what is up and what is down is gone. Directionality; north, south, east, west, all gone. Almost everything humans give meaning to, everything we catagorise, it becomes meaningless in outerspace. And outerspace often represents the greater expanses of the universe, so if human meaning is futile a mere hundred miles away from the Earth, then like, what's the point. This is why some astronauts go mad in space, because of a lack of consistency and habit. They frequently need clocks to tell them if five minutes has passed or half an hour has passed.

That's more sensory disorientation than lack of habit tbh. People go mental on earth too when they are deprived of natural light, time, gravity, sound, vision, etc. I think there is a difference between the natural cycle on earth that all animals have physically gotten used to, and the way in which we choose, or not, as the case may be.. to structure our lives. Again, structure is different to habit. I do agree that we are creatures of habit when left to our own devices, but I am sure one could also exist, and I'm sure also, as Courtney says, people with less than ideal situations, could learn to live without habit.

It's not the sensory disorientation, they have simulators for that on Earth, it's the lack of guidance that one usually gets from knowing what, where, and when things are with the structure we create on Earth. And, how on Earth can you deprive someone of gravity? (I think it's only possible outside of the Earth. Outside? Whatever.) The structure that we give, like divisions of time, make way for the habit we create from the structure. It's connected.

That'd be kinda funny. Parent telling off their child, 'That's it, no more gravity for you mister!'

I utterly disagree. I think habit is absolutely essential to life, something that people automatically develop almost as an instinct.

Anji:

It's not consistency I'm talking about

Anji:

There is always consistency in the way we live

Do you know what you're talking about?

Ani:

It is essential to form habit in life, to get up every morning, to eat, to do something in life.

Obviously it isn't essential to everyone seeing as how not everyone does that. Is it common practice? Yes. Is common practice the basis of everything? No, there are all kinds of exceptions.

Anji:

Yeah, they come back quite often as nut cases.

Do they always come back like that? No. So obviously it isn't necessary to have consistency or habit... whichever you're currently calling it. You have yet to provide one valid example proving that people cannot survive without habits or consistency. (because you won't find one...)

Anji:

People can't live without habit, it's a fact.

Anji:

I think habit is absolutely essential to life, something that people automatically develop almost as an instinct.

You went from "its a fact" to "I think". You thinking something doesn't make it a fact, it makes it your opinion. I consider you a very intelligent person and I value your opinions obviously, but to act as if they're indisputable facts is misleading.

Kurtni:

Do you know what you're talking about?

I told you to disregard my previous statement.

Kurtni:

Obviously it isn't essential to everyone seeing as how not everyone does that. Is it common practice? Yes. Is common practice the basis of everything? No, there are all kinds of exceptions.

I don't think that there are any exceptions what-so-ever. Even if I have no imperical proof that habit is absolutely essential to human life, other than the fact that everyone has habits, I mean, can you find proof otherwise. Who goes through life with absolutely no habits at all. We automatically form them as a part of human nature, it is our need to create meaning like this in such a way. Even the great Samuel Beckett who blatantly detested habit, he had habits.

Kurtni:

Do they always come back like that? No. So obviously it isn't necessary to have consistency or habit... whichever you're currently calling it. You have yet to provide one valid example proving that people cannot survive without habits or consistency. (because you won't find one...)

Vice versa to you, you may not think that it is essential, so find me an example then.

Also, to go further about nihilism, people who recognise that there is no inherit truth in life and recognise that all the habits we do form are ultimately absurd will also realise that the only way to escape this habit is to kill themselves. So another proof is in all the people who have commited suicide in the face of absurdism.

Kurtni:

You went from "its a fact" to "I think". You thinking something doesn't make it a fact, it makes it your opinion. I consider you a very intelligent person and I value your opinions obviously, but to act as if they're indisputable facts is misleading.

For me, it's definately a fact. Existentially, I make my own meaning from this which I consider a fact. You obviously think otherwise.

I'm such an idiot. To be truely existentialist, you find your own meaning in yourself. I know I couldn't live without habits. The simplest habits, without them I'm sure I couldn't survive. I would be lost in the utter absurdity of existence and the absurdity of the human condition. For instance, every Sunday I buy a traditional Thai dinner from this lady at the market, one day she wasn't there and that completely threw off my entire day. That's one habit in one day, if every single habit I have were to go, my structure and meaning would prove itself to be completely obselete. What I consider is necessary for me to go through with my life would be completely broken down. Maybe I'm weak, but I certainly would not be able to survive. Because it's just ultimately absurd.

Anji:

For me, it's definately a fact.

Facts don't work like that. If something is a fact, it is always applicable and holds true constantly. If I said for me, it's a fact that the sun is made of cotton candy, that doesn't make it true, and it certainly doesn't make it a fact. Facts are not based off of personal experiences, opinions are, and what you're talking about is nothing more than your opinion.

Anji:

I don't think that there are any exceptions what-so-ever. Even if I have no imperical proof that habit is absolutely essential to human life, other than the fact that everyone has habits

Thats pretty nifty how you've met every single person on the planet to reach that conclusion.

Anji:

Maybe I'm weak, but I certainly would not be able to survive.

Just because you cannot do something doesn't mean you can consider it a fact that no one could. Strength or weakness has nothing to do with it, I just think its "absurd" as you like to say, to call an opinion a fact.

Anji:

Maybe I'm weak, but I certainly would not be able to survive.

Quote

Just because you cannot do something doesn't mean you can consider it a fact that no one could. Strength or weakness has nothing to do with it, I just think its "absurd" as you like to say, to call an opinion a fact.

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but it doesn't seem to me that she claimed that no one could. It is a fact that she doesn't think she could survive. Nowhere did she say that she believes no one could.

Don't argue a point just because you feel like it. You should have something to back up what you're arguing.

Poette:

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but it doesn't seem to me that she claimed that no one could.

Oh really?

Anji:

People can't live without habit, it's a fact.

Anji:

There is always consistency in the way we live, nobody can live, honestly without a routine in life,

Poette:

It is a fact that she doesn't think she could survive. Nowhere did she say that she believes no one could.

Don't argue a point just because you feel like it. You should have something to back up what you're arguing.

Anji and I aren't arguing a point just "because we feel like it" We're discussing something because we disagree, and you obviously didn't read our entire conversation before jumping in and accusing me of misquoting her. That's ok though, but You should have something to back up what you're arguing.

Kurtni:

Poette:

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but it doesn't seem to me that she claimed that no one could.

Oh really?

Anji:

People can't live without habit, it's a fact.

Anji:

There is always consistency in the way we live, nobody can live, honestly without a routine in life,

Poette:

It is a fact that she doesn't think she could survive. Nowhere did she say that she believes no one could.

Don't argue a point just because you feel like it. You should have something to back up what you're arguing.

Anji and I aren't arguing a point just "because we feel like it" We're discussing something because we disagree, and you obviously didn't read our entire conversation before jumping in and accusing me of misquoting her. That's ok though, but You should have something to back up what you're arguing.

I did read your entire conversation, and from what you quoted the first time, you made it seem as though you were criticizing her for no reason. To me, you did misquote her, but that's simply my opinion. No big deal.

Poette:

I did read your entire conversation, and from what you quoted the first time, you made it seem as though you were criticizing her for no reason. To me, you did misquote her, but that's simply my opinion. No big deal.

For no reason? I'm quite certain I made it clear I was questioning her calling that a fact and not an opinion. They're two very different things. And had you read our entire conversation, you would have seen she was not talking about herself as an individual for the majority of the conversation, and about people as a whole.