Anji Basket Case Age: 35 Gender: Female Posts: 15914
January 17th, 2007 at 09:02am
tyco:
i even see smacking them when they missbehave as abuse.. if somone lets say swears at you do you go up and slap them round the chops so they know its wrong?
the bottom line is why smack when you can teach them in other ways?
i can see you quite obviously love your dogs and im not saying your a horrible person but it is abusing them.. mild abuse as it may be but still abuse.
Not when it isn't abuse. Do you know what abuse is? You're using it falsely under negative connotations. There may be other ways, but that aren't as good. I don't want my dogs to expect rewards for everything. I want them to learn that it is what they should do, not what they do in order to get something. I don't want my dogs to be spoilt. That's why I refrain from giving them treats all the time.
OKAY I JUST WROTE OUT A MASSIVE PAGE OF WORK SAYING WHAT ABUSE IS AND WHAT ANIMAL ABUSE IS
AND THE CORRECT WAYS TO TRAIN ANIMAL
WHY YOU SHOULDNT SMACK ANIMALS
(sorry bout caps)
what harm smacking animals can do
quotations from other people
and also a quotation that dogs can in fact hear tones.. yall find its sounds the cant hear very well..
but it all got deleted and i cant be botherd to find it all again so when i can be botherd i will post it AGAIN! lol..
sorry bout that.
it was just sooooo irritating that i got angry and now i cant be arsed!
oh and also most trainers belive that rewarding good behaviour and ignoreing the bad shows them whats right and WRONG.. and they stop seeing it as a game too.. if need be use tones or take them away from the offending object.
Anji Basket Case Age: 35 Gender: Female Posts: 15914
January 18th, 2007 at 08:56am
tyco:
OKAY I JUST WROTE OUT A MASSIVE PAGE OF WORK SAYING WHAT ABUSE IS AND WHAT ANIMAL ABUSE IS
AND THE CORRECT WAYS TO TRAIN ANIMAL
WHY YOU SHOULDNT SMACK ANIMALS
(sorry bout caps)
what harm smacking animals can do
quotations from other people
and also a quotation that dogs can in fact hear tones.. yall find its sounds the cant hear very well..
but it all got deleted and i cant be botherd to find it all again so when i can be botherd i will post it AGAIN! lol..
sorry bout that.
it was just sooooo irritating that i got angry and now i cant be arsed!
Stop using the word 'abuse' as a false negative connotation. It is incorrect information. It's manipulation. If I abused my pets, I'd say that I abused them, and I don't, I discipline them.
newagecarny Was Here Two Weeks Ago Age: 33 Gender: Female Posts: 42495
January 18th, 2007 at 09:50am
I am one of those people whose animal rights are almost their sole purpose on Earth.
But I'll tell you one thing.
When dealing with a puppy, you have to make it realize who is in charge. Example, if it urinates on your carpet, spanking it once or twice and pressing their head against the wet stain will do the trick. That kind of disciplining is far from violence.
People who take their anger out on their pets are cowards. But nowadays there are animal police officers dedicating their time and trying their best to put an end to it.
Anji Basket Case Age: 35 Gender: Female Posts: 15914
January 18th, 2007 at 10:57am
My dogs are still puppies and are learning. I think it's OK to hit them at this age as a means of making the pet behave. There is an age, however, where it doesn't need this kind of attention. Maybe occasionally, but usually not at all.
There is never a need to hit an animal or a child, ever. However, it is also more effective in a quicker time to use physical training.There are always other waysother ways. I personally, could never hit my cat. I don't think people who hit their pets are bad people or anything, I just never could. I couldn't hit my dogs either, I have too much of a soft spot for animals. I did spend ALOT of time training my dogs and my dad helped too, they are wonderful so I'd never need to. I use a little spray bottle with my cat. Whenever my cat gets on the counter or somewhere he shouldn't be, he gets sprayed. Then he goes and lays under my bed for 15 minutes because he is pissed.
When I say 'hit', I don't mean abuse. Abusing an animal is never ok, in any situation.
If she is caught in the act, actually squatting to eliminate, don't yell at her, hit her or kick her. Use your verbal reprimand word, such as "eh", merely to interrupt the behavior (no need to shout). Then simply take her to the door, saying, in a neutral tone of voice, "Let's go outside". Take her to the appropriate place and let her finish her elimination, as you encourage her with your "Go potty" phrase. Yelling, hitting, making loud noises or other punishments don't help with house training and seem to cause fears that can actually disrupt the house training process.
Never punish after the fact. Puppies will have some accidents no matter how good a job you do in training her.
Reward good behavior. Take the puppy to the place where you want her to eliminate at times when she is most likely to need to go -- first thing in the morning after waking up, last thing at night before going to bed, after each meal, after naps longer than two hours or after play periods of more than 20 minutes. When taking the puppy out, you should ask " Do you want to go potty?" or " Do you want to go outside?" or some other phrase to try to get her excited to go out. When taking her to the spot where she should eliminate, you should stand with her and tell her " Do your business" or "Go potty". When she eliminates, praise her lavishly but quietly and give her a tasty tidbit. It is very important that you reward her for going in the appropriate place. This is how she establishes her preferences.
If she wasn't caught in the act, don't yell, hit her or do any other punishment. The dog will not understand what she is being punished for. Even taking her over to the mess and then delivering the punishment will not help. She will not make the connection between the behavior that produced the mess (squatting and eliminating) and the punishment delivered minutes or hours later. At best the pup punished after the fact will only learn to avoid messes and become fearful of the owners. Even if you come on the mess just a few seconds after it happened, taking the dog outside will not help. Simply clean up the mess and try to supervise her more carefully.
even though hitting is a minor abuse it is still an abuse the definition of abuse is to miss use miss treat and also dominate using physicall behaviour. therefor it is abuse.
if you hit somone for saying something OTT you would be abusing them..
"Dogs hear high and low tones in particular much better than humans do. Humans can pick up an average of 20,000 acoustic vibrations per second (kHz), whereas a dog is able to perceive between 40,000 and 100,000 vibrations."
this shows that dogs do understand tones and can hear tones better then we do.
even though hitting is a minor abuse it is still an abuse the definition of abuse is to miss use miss treat and also dominate using physicall behaviour. therefor it is abuse.
if you hit somone for saying something OTT you would be abusing them..
"Dogs hear high and low tones in particular much better than humans do. Humans can pick up an average of 20,000 acoustic vibrations per second (kHz), whereas a dog is able to perceive between 40,000 and 100,000 vibrations."
this shows that dogs do understand tones and can hear tones better then we do.
I have seriously had enough of your extremist babbleing, it's ridiculous. Every single thing you have said in here is beyond ridiculous. If you feel that using physical contact to train animals is wrong, and there are better ways, thats fine, but telling people that they are abusing their pets is ridiculous and borderling ignorant. Abuse is something that causes animals extreme physical and mental trama and can have lasting effects, tampering with the animals ability to live and fuction. FIicking a dog on the nose when they do bad things is far from abuse, thats a technique used by many animal trainers after their pets are trained. Why? Because they don't like it, it teaches them 'if you do things I dislike, you'll have consequences you dislike" Was the animal severely abused or harmed? No, it wasn't, if you say it was, it's only because you lack the capability to defend yourself any other way, and you don't know what you're argueing for.I hate to break it to you, but unless you are training a cute fuzzy little tea cup chiwawa, giggiling and saying "no silly, dont piss on my carpet" doesn't quite work. You'll notice this thread is calling "DISCIPLINING your pets". As in, you arent training them, they have been trained already, and still commited the bad actions. Any professional dog trainer will tell you that you never use punishment to train puppies, that's insane. So, I don't know where you were intending to go with that, but just stop. So,They do need punishment, otherwise you will have an ill-behaved pet. Oh, also, do you think dogs pissing in the house is the only thing they do wrong? No dear, it isn't. Dogs chew things up, bark when they know they arent suppose to, jump on furniture, chase things, try to eat your cat, whatever. Potty training a dog isn't the only issue you have to face.
And what are you getting at with the tones? That doesn't mean they hear what we say in a different way, that means they hear things we can't. They hear vibrations our ears can't process, and theirs can. That doesn't change the fact that they using stern tones with a dog is needed.
Matt Smith Admin Age: 33 Gender: Female Posts: 31134
January 20th, 2007 at 10:34am
I think there are different ways to disciplin an animal.
For example; if my dog does something wrong we may make him stay in his room for some period of time, or tapping/pressing on his nose seems to work
Obviously, everybody needs some kind of disciplin, and animals are just the same, but in the same way I oppose violent disciplin in humans, I oppose it in animals too. And yeah, hitting is a violent action to me.
An animal doesn't need to be hit, that will probably be counter productive. Besides, making the animal stay in its room (or if your animal isn't as spoilt as mine and doesn't have his own room, its kennel or whatever), taking away its treats and refusing to give it attention for a period of time is just as good a way of letting it know it did something wrong.
But my nonviolent principles are carried forward with animals just the same as they are in humans, so I guess thats just my opinion.
Whats funny is even if I did hit my dog, he'd just look at me like "wtf quit poking me dumbass" It's pretty ineffective with pitbulls. Hitting that is. Now, if you abuse a pitbull, chances are you, or whoever happens to have the misfourtune of coming across the dog will get their hand bit off, more than likely more than that. That is the difference between abuse and physical punishment. Pitbulls have high pain tolerance, you could hit them intending to punish and they'd think you were playing with them, so really physical punishment is pretty ineffective with them. Thats why I hate reading about how pitbulls were abused. It takes alot more than hitting them to make them like that, I can't even imagine what all gets done to them. It's terrible to think about.
even though hitting is a minor abuse it is still an abuse the definition of abuse is to miss use miss treat and also dominate using physicall behaviour. therefor it is abuse.
if you hit somone for saying something OTT you would be abusing them..
"Dogs hear high and low tones in particular much better than humans do. Humans can pick up an average of 20,000 acoustic vibrations per second (kHz), whereas a dog is able to perceive between 40,000 and 100,000 vibrations."
this shows that dogs do understand tones and can hear tones better then we do.
I have seriously had enough of your extremist babbleing, it's ridiculous. Every single thing you have said in here is beyond ridiculous. If you feel that using physical contact to train animals is wrong, and there are better ways, thats fine, but telling people that they are abusing their pets is ridiculous and borderling ignorant. Abuse is something that causes animals extreme physical and mental trama and can have lasting effects, tampering with the animals ability to live and fuction. FIicking a dog on the nose when they do bad things is far from abuse, thats a technique used by many animal trainers after their pets are trained. Why? Because they don't like it, it teaches them 'if you do things I dislike, you'll have consequences you dislike" Was the animal severely abused or harmed? No, it wasn't, if you say it was, it's only because you lack the capability to defend yourself any other way, and you don't know what you're argueing for.I hate to break it to you, but unless you are training a cute fuzzy little tea cup chiwawa, giggiling and saying "no silly, dont piss on my carpet" doesn't quite work. You'll notice this thread is calling "DISCIPLINING your pets". As in, you arent training them, they have been trained already, and still commited the bad actions. Any professional dog trainer will tell you that you never use punishment to train puppies, that's insane. So, I don't know where you were intending to go with that, but just stop. So,They do need punishment, otherwise you will have an ill-behaved pet. Oh, also, do you think dogs pissing in the house is the only thing they do wrong? No dear, it isn't. Dogs chew things up, bark when they know they arent suppose to, jump on furniture, chase things, try to eat your cat, whatever. Potty training a dog isn't the only issue you have to face.
And what are you getting at with the tones? That doesn't mean they hear what we say in a different way, that means they hear things we can't. They hear vibrations our ears can't process, and theirs can. That doesn't change the fact that they using stern tones with a dog is needed.
Would you slap a child for swearing? no, you shout at them or something. am i right? okay a puppy wont understand you because its too young to have picked it up, but the tone of voice comunicates to them that they are doing something wrong. thats what tyco is talking about. you dont need to physically discipline them, a stern word or spraying them with a bottle or something does the trick. besides, hitting the animal will give it the impression that humans are there to hurt it, and it may take revenge, many vicious dogs were hit as puppies.
CASE STUDY (this is from personal experience): a horse i know, sweetest animal you will ever meet, but when he was trained he was beaten if he did something wrong. now, 18 years later, he still runs away if soemone even brings a whip near him. animals dont forget negative experiences.
Anji Basket Case Age: 35 Gender: Female Posts: 15914
January 21st, 2007 at 10:47am
tyco:
"Dogs hear high and low tones in particular much better than humans do. Humans can pick up an average of 20,000 acoustic vibrations per second (kHz), whereas a dog is able to perceive between 40,000 and 100,000 vibrations."
Where on Earth in that quote does it say anything about human tones, this is what i'm trying to say. Listen to me, I know they can hear like a thousand times better than us and their hearing range is both higher and lower...but their middle ranges and listening to human voices isn't too good. They know how to obey basic commands, and can tell some voices apart, but they don't hear 'tones' the way we do. Stop comparing people to dogs, we are completely different.
Anji Basket Case Age: 35 Gender: Female Posts: 15914
January 21st, 2007 at 11:09am
anti-christ of suburbia:
Would you slap a child for swearing? no, you shout at them or something. am i right? okay a puppy wont understand you because its too young to have picked it up, but the tone of voice comunicates to them that they are doing something wrong. thats what tyco is talking about. you dont need to physically discipline them, a stern word or spraying them with a bottle or something does the trick. besides, hitting the animal will give it the impression that humans are there to hurt it, and it may take revenge, many vicious dogs were hit as puppies.
CASE STUDY (this is from personal experience): a horse i know, sweetest animal you will ever meet, but when he was trained he was beaten if he did something wrong. now, 18 years later, he still runs away if soemone even brings a whip near him. animals dont forget negative experiences.
First off, humans and dogs are different. We are different species which thank and act differently due to completely different brains. So don't go comparing us to them. But, since we are talking about it, the only basic thing that all animals have in common is that we all learn better when we're young, which is why humans go to school when they're little and why most mammals stay with their mothers to learn life lessons. Anyway, hitting children is a different topic on a different thread. Also, I hit my dogs, I disciplin them, and they never, will never, have never hurt a fly. Now, again, a horse is a completely different animal and again, thinks differently to a dog. So your arguement does not contribute anything to the discussion about disciplining dogs. Lastly, of course animals never forget negative experiences, which is why they will never repeat what they did wrong, so hitting as a form of disciplin works.
Peter Petrelli King For A Couple Of Days Age: 35 Gender: Female Posts: 4161
January 21st, 2007 at 11:34am
Okay, so we've established that dogs and humans have different brains?
Therefore, a dog/animal only has a basic understanding of right and wrong.
With that in mind, I would've thought that discipline, such as tapping, firm verbal commands, and examples of training young puppies make sense, in my opinion.
But I think if you're going to discipline an animal to a great degree, it must be done when it's young - I think that it would be unfair to suddenly change how you treat a grown animal. A young animal will learn much easier, logically?
Anji Basket Case Age: 35 Gender: Female Posts: 15914
January 21st, 2007 at 11:41am
Ginger Nuts:
Okay, so we've established that dogs and humans have different brains?
Therefore, a dog/animal only has a basic understanding of right and wrong.
With that in mind, I would've thought that discipline, such as tapping, firm verbal commands, and examples of training young puppies make sense, in my opinion.
But I think if you're going to discipline an animal to a great degree, it must be done when it's young - I think that it would be unfair to suddenly change how you treat a grown animal. A young animal will learn much easier, logically?
Yep, like any young animal.
Matt Smith Admin Age: 33 Gender: Female Posts: 31134
January 21st, 2007 at 11:58am
Anji:
Ginger Nuts:
Okay, so we've established that dogs and humans have different brains?
Therefore, a dog/animal only has a basic understanding of right and wrong.
With that in mind, I would've thought that discipline, such as tapping, firm verbal commands, and examples of training young puppies make sense, in my opinion.
But I think if you're going to discipline an animal to a great degree, it must be done when it's young - I think that it would be unfair to suddenly change how you treat a grown animal. A young animal will learn much easier, logically?
Yep, like any young animal.
Some people don't always start owning their animals young
You can miss a lot of opportunities that way.
Anji Basket Case Age: 35 Gender: Female Posts: 15914
January 21st, 2007 at 12:02pm
Bloodraine:
Anji:
Ginger Nuts:
Okay, so we've established that dogs and humans have different brains?
Therefore, a dog/animal only has a basic understanding of right and wrong.
With that in mind, I would've thought that discipline, such as tapping, firm verbal commands, and examples of training young puppies make sense, in my opinion.
But I think if you're going to discipline an animal to a great degree, it must be done when it's young - I think that it would be unfair to suddenly change how you treat a grown animal. A young animal will learn much easier, logically?
Yep, like any young animal.
Some people don't always start owning their animals young
You can miss a lot of opportunities that way.
Well, with any owner change there always has to be changes. Older dogs learn slow. It is not impossible to teach an old dog new tricks, but it is hard.
dogaholic King For A Couple Of Days Age: 33 Gender: Female Posts: 4198
January 21st, 2007 at 01:45pm
Anji:
I had this discussion with some friends today, and it kinda links back to the dog thread, but is it OK to discipline your pets through hitting? Or should it not happen at all. Does it even help? Do you consider it animal abuse?
discipline by mistreating? NO!
Actually the best method to teach pets is to give a prize for doing something good. Hitting never helps, the only result is that the dog(or any other pet) may become aggresive or fearful.
It's terrible to think about.
