Suicide and self harm!

madddie:

Suicide is FUCKING selfish

why?

Me and my boyfriend had been going out for about 7 months when his mum killed herself, and it fucked him up, and his brother. I really liked her and everything, but what she has done has ruined them. Its been 2 years now, and today his brother tried to himself.. by setting himself on fire and has now been out into a mental hospital. I think it is the worst thing you could ever do as a mother.

madddie:

Suicide is FUCKING selfish

I agree
I mean, I know that depression is an actual serious illness and people arent in their right minds...but yeah.
My mom's uncle committed suicide, before I was born, and it completely messed up his two sons, they got in to all sorts of trouble, and it really just damages the whole family psychologically.

Suicide is kinda selfish, I guess..
But its kinda selfish to stop people from doing it too, though..
Just because you are afraid to loose them.

^^ Suicide is selfish.

I don't think it's selfish to stop people doing it - unless the person who wants to commit suicide has no quality of life for whatever reason. I'm specifically thinking of the 'right to die' argument, and debilitating medical conditions.

If someone close to me considered suicide, I'd do everything in my power to convince them not to - not because I'm selfish, but because things may be bad but they can get better.

I'm a pretty positive person

It's a tough one to call.

Postive persons are nice, the world needs more of them

But I'm just seeing ot from a suicidal persons perspective. If I hated my life that much, I would thing it was selfish of people to try to stop me.

But I guess both sides are selfish really.. It depends on how you look at it

Aliiiiii.:

^^ Suicide is selfish.

I don't think it's selfish to stop people doing it - unless the person who wants to commit suicide has no quality of life for whatever reason. I'm specifically thinking of the 'right to die' argument, and debilitating medical conditions.

If someone close to me considered suicide, I'd do everything in my power to convince them not to - not because I'm selfish, but because things may be bad but they can get better.

I'm a pretty positive person

It's a tough one to call.

Yeah, what I'm thinking is that how can you know that things will never improve? If you kill yourself you have no way of knowing that things could have turned around a short time later.

Lykkepillen:

Suicide is kinda selfish, I guess..
But its kinda selfish to stop people from doing it too, though..
Just because you are afraid to loose them.

But leaving behind your 15 and 19 year old children? You shouldn't even NEED to try and stop them.

Sorry, i'm so bitter about the subject!

Aliiiiii.:

^^ Suicide is selfish.

I don't think it's selfish to stop people doing it - unless the person who wants to commit suicide has no quality of life for whatever reason. I'm specifically thinking of the 'right to die' argument, and debilitating medical conditions.

may I ask why you don't see mental issues to be a medical condition? Those who commit suicide do not take the decision lightly and probably suffered from life long mental problems, thus reducing their quality of life. Just because things like depression do not come with a wheelchair or a physical restriction does not make it any less serious on someones quality of life.

^^ I do. I never said that I was thinking of physical conditions, just debilitating. For whatever reason - mentally, physically.

My Mum, Dad, brother and Grandfather have depression. My Mum has attempted suicide, albeit as more of a cry for help than a genuine want to die. Depression is something I understand very well.

I specifically said 'for whatever reason'. Because there are a million reasons someone might have low quality of life.

I have ME. You may have heard about the Mother that recently killed her daughter - a kind of mercy killing - because the daughter was in so much pain. That's ME.

ME is a physical and mental condition. So, do you think I think any less of a mental illness?

No, I don't. And even though I'm very, very lucky with my illness, I've had some very horrible times. Being a teenager and feeling 90 gave me a pretty shit quality of life for a while, to be honest. I couldn't go out with my friends because I had an 8pm bedtime, and a lot of them struggled to understand. That was obviously hard, mentally. I'm not going to go into ME because that's not what this is about, but I can assure you that I understand.

Desmond Hume:

Yeah, what I'm thinking is that how can you know that things will never improve? If you kill yourself you have no way of knowing that things could have turned around a short time later.

I did think about this, but my experience has made me SUCH a positive person that I don't doubt that anything can improve.

Personally, I had a massive slump around October time. It was just after we went to see GD - which was shit. I felt tired and achey the whole time and just didn't enjoy it. Hence - miserable. And sick of being ill. I kind of half-heartedly vowed that next time I wanted to go to a big gig, rather than a small local one, I'd be at least a little bit better.

But due in part to a friend at work practically forcing me to think positively and the June dates being announced - I couldn't've asked for more of a sign to stop feeling sorry for myself, even though it's lame - I started thinking more positively.

I can't even explain how much things have changed - I'm working two jobs, which I love, I got a raise at one just last week, I'm making actual plans again to do things... things have improved. No end.

So, even though I was at my very lowest, and I was miserable and I felt horrible, things turned around.

Therefore, I don't have any option BUT to believe that things can improve. I've been made into an optimist.

I hope that explains.

I don't really wanna get into personal issues because that's when misunderstandings happen but I just find it curious that you think it's different for a physically disabled person to have help to comit suicide (because i assume you're talking about euthanasia) than for a person with mental issues to take their own lives. Surely both ways could be considered as "selfish" because they both are ending their own suffering.

My point was that I don't think that it's any different.

It is a case of quality of life in general.

I said it was a tough one to call because it is; what one person sees as a poor quality of life may be completely different than another's.

You could say that you should 'euthanize' people in desperate poverty because they have little quality of life. But who should make that call?

What makes it 'right' to take one person's life but not another's? Or for one person to be criticized for taking their own life, but for another to be allowed?

The only point on which I'm sure of my opinion is when someone is not ill, physically or mentally, and they take their own life. That is, in my opinion, selfish.

Where illness is involved, it's a lot more blurry. And no matter how much I think about it I can't form an opinion.

Does that explain it to you? I can't make it any more clear than that because in my mind, it isn't.

Oh that's clear but you say when someone who isnt ill takes their life that it's selfish but I can't think of a case where someone would do that if there weren't some underlying issues I mean, even if it's a single event that makes someone kill themselves then they must not have been mentally "stable" in the first place to be pushed over the edge, if that makes sense.

Yeah, that does make sense.

I suppose for anyone to do that they must have some kind of 'wrong' thoughts - or maybe just a real sense of hopelessness?

I know in the case of my Mum, she didn't want to die. She was, to put it bluntly, attention-seeking. She drinks too much and she was looking for drama. And that, to me, was very selfish.

I think that's formed my opinions about it a lot. But, thinking about it, we later found out that the was/is suffering from depression. Maybe she wouldn't have done it had she not been suffering from depression - and alcoholism.

But yeah, I definitely know what you mean. For someone to be that deep in despair, there is more than likely to be some kind of underlying problem.

Aliiiiii.:

You could say that you should 'euthanize' people in desperate poverty because they have little quality of life. But who should make that call?

What makes it 'right' to take one person's life but not another's? Or for one person to be criticized for taking their own life, but for another to be allowed?

The only point on which I'm sure of my opinion is when someone is not ill, physically or mentally, and they take their own life. That is, in my opinion, selfish.

Where illness is involved, it's a lot more blurry. And no matter how much I think about it I can't form an opinion.

Does that explain it to you? I can't make it any more clear than that because in my mind, it isn't.

obvious. the individual is the best determiner of his/her own self-interest.
it seems to me problematic that you provide an exception for people who have "poor quality of life" and as you've proved yourself, that is a highly flawed argument. define quality of life, for starters. if you can't even set down a parameter for your exception then it doesn't really work. i could argue that your quality of life is inferior mine because you have ME, so it's fine for you to kill yourself. but that wouldn't really be fair - since compared to the rest of the world you're a rich western privileged person and your quality of life will always be far superior to 90% of the world's population.

so i return to the original argument, which is that the individual, not anyone else, is the best determiner of his/her own self-interest. suicide is a self-regarding action, call it 'selfish' if you will, but people have the 'right' to do it. but really, what does calling people selfish solve? what should stop people from killing themselves isn't being slagged off and berated for being 'selfish' because of other people, but their own will to survive. you save yourself or you remain unsaved. no amount of insulting will prevent a suicidal person from killing themselves: in fact, you'd probably make them feel worse about themselves by going down that route.

^^ But, in the case of mental illness or even when some people are in a moment/time of despair, some people aren't able to see what is in their best interest at that time. They might make a decision that they regret (or, are not able to regret) later.

So, because everyone is able to determine what is in their best interests, that means that they are able to do it all of the time?

For example: I know it is in my best interests to eat fruit and vegetables and whole grains, etc. Does that mean I am able to do it all of the time? No.

That's a stupid example, but there's such a broad scale - because someone knows it's in their best interest to do one thing, they don't always do it. People do things that aren't in their best interests all of the time. Sometimes people need help and support to see what is in their best interest.

As to what is considered quality of life, it is different for everyone. I could say that my illness has ruined my social life and to me, that makes life not worth living. I just choose not to. Just as someone else could say that losing a loved one has ruined their quality of life and makes their life not worth living. Quality of life can't be measured, because it's different to everyone.

I understand that people have the 'right' to do whatever they want. That's obvious. But I also understand that sometimes people don't consider the consequences of their actions, and the impact of their actions on other people.

I think it's selfish because of my experiences with suicide. Had I not had these experiences, I might not. So it's unfair of you to tell me that I'm wrong for feeling a certain way; just like I would be wrong to tell you that you're wrong. I don't think you are wrong.

I know that when my brother's friend committed suicide, it was because he had just lost a lot of money gambling. He wasn't mentally ill; he had, I'm told, a good, stable life and a lot to live for. But because he lost some money, and seemed desperate, and had been drinking (it might even had been accidental), he committed suicide.

The impact it had on my brother and all of his friends was horrible. It was selfish.

you're missing the point of a self-regarding action (or at least your example is missing the point). a more appropriate example would be: i have the right to inject heroin. i'm not able to right this moment because i don't have any heroin. but if i had heroin, i'd certainly have that right. you still have the right to eat fruit even if you personally are too lazy/busy/unhealthy to do so.

anyway, that logical fallacy aside, you really don't seem to be taking on board the point i'm making, do you? what should stop people from killing themselves isn't being slagged off and berated for being 'selfish' because of other people, but their own will to survive. you save yourself or you remain unsaved. no amount of insulting will prevent a suicidal person from killing themselves: in fact, you'd probably make them feel worse about themselves by going down that route.

what are you achieving by calling suicidal people selfish? making them feel worse, pushing them closer to the edge. suicide prevention hotlines don't work on the basis of volunteers calling depressed people selfish bastards because it's not an effective nor a worthwhile thing to do.

My example, you're right, was terrible - but I was trying to make a similar point. Just because it's in someone's best interests to do - or to not do - something doesn't mean they will always find it easy to do that. Some people need guidance and help. And some people want help; some don't.

You're right; people that are suicidal aren't selfish. To me, the definition of suicidal is wanting to commit suicide but not doing it - yet. Is it not?

So, to that end, being suicidal is the very opposite of selfish - holding on, for whatever reason - for the time being. Maybe things will get better, maybe things won't.

But, as I originally said, my experiences have made me believe that a person committing suicide - a person with no mental or physical illness, no desperate situation - is selfish.

And, on a lighter note, I always eat my five a day.

I've only just really thought about this, but in the case of suicide attempts for attention-seeking purposes, sometimes people just need a kick. Obviously it depends on the person, without a doubt. But when someone close to me attempted suicide she was past the point of pity - she needed a really good talking to, and telling how stupid it was to try it. She hasn't tried again, and is much more positive.

For a long time, I had the right not to eat anything at all. Did that stop the people around me telling me I was being stupid and selfish for making them worry? No, they were bluntly honest because that was what I needed to hear.

In those cases, it worked. I guess in that case you could call it tough love. Obviously other situations are very different. Again, it's a very tough one to call. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong - not at all. This is just what I think. Experiences or education might change my mind.

Aliiiiii.:

And, on a lighter note, I always eat my five a day.

This is what popped out when I looked at the message .

i was really depressive some time ago. life sucked and i was thinking about suicide. then i bought this green day album and life finally made sense again. they really saved my life and that´s one big reason why i love them so much.